[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by 4zpeed

Well beyond the bar room brawls I thought it was a great topic, thanks for the thread.

I apologize if my post seemed sarcastic, we're all Pontiac people here, much love brother.



Frank

It's all good. I have a bit of a temper and own that part. Peace!

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by JSchmitz

I posted to see what other designs were out there. I wasn't, and still am not, interested in keeping the original design. This has turned into a debate about how great the factory design is. I'm sorry that this hasn't stayed more matter of fact. Egos and personal feelings have prevailed over facts (If there are any present). I'm guilty as well. This has gone way too for for a simple topic. I'm done.

If you have never designed a Automotive Part and Put it into Production, then anything that you post is an opinion. Everyone has a right to their opinion and how they drive, maintain, modify THEIR vehicle. If you go down a given "path" with your vehicle and change the design of the part or modify the part or substitute one part for another part, that decision is on you personally.

BUT when you get on a forum and give your opinion and someone else then follows that opinion, now you have potential safety issues.

Your vehicle (the 64 vehicle) as you know does not have seat back locks, or headrests. A very unsafe situation which was corrected years later when safety standards were put in place for manufacturers and component designers.

Pontiac Engineering was not perfect by any means when they designed the A-Body Vehicle in 1964. Neither was Chevrolet.

The frame and crossmember was far from being perfect. But it was designed by a designer for a given power level. And then the racers installed bigger and better traction tires and wheels and the owners broke the frames.
A common issue was tearing out the right upper rear frame crossmember, (so Pontiac designed the pieces to reinforce that area of the frame). It was a warranty fix and a potential frame upgrade modification to the A-Body cars.

Point being, Pontiac Designers designed parts to a given specification. If you did not beat on the vehicle the rear cross-member issue would never appear.
So the drivers/owners caused the issues and then blame the Designers for designing sub-standard parts. Pontiac used the "Biscuit" and Clamp" design on the A-Body vehicles for the production life of those A-Bodies.

Good or bad, it is what they did. Right or wrong, you have your opinion on what is a better design vs the Pontiac design. Pontiac is dead. The Pontiac Police are not going to come and see you for modifying your cross-member in your 1964 vehicle. Do whatever you want with your vehicle.

Just don't throw rocks at people who actually did the job for a living and designed a given part based on direction from their upper management.

That comment being said, I personally have a problem with the Cooling and FEAD Design Engineer who changed his design for those systems every year on the 1964 thru 1972 A-Body Model Years. Examples are:
Pulleys are different year by year, water pumps are different, timing covers/water pump flow is different, Power steering stuff is different, and the list goes on and on.

We can have a thread on that guy and his constant changing of component designs vs the common Chevy design pieces.

"If you have never done the Job for a Living, you have an opinion. You may have experience with different parts but you are not an Engineer or Designer." Jim Clarke, a Ford Chief Engineer, said One Piece of DATA is work 10,000 Opinions. You have your opinion, I have mine, modify your cross-member to your hearts desire.

Tom V.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

If you have never designed a Automotive Part and Put it into Production, then anything that you post is an opinion. Everyone has a right to their opinion and how they drive, maintain, modify THEIR vehicle. If you go down a given "path" with your vehicle and change the design of the part or modify the part or substitute one part for another part, that decision is on you personally.

BUT when you get on a forum and give your opinion and someone else then follows that opinion, now you have potential safety issues.

Your vehicle (the 64 vehicle) as you know does not have seat back locks, or headrests. A very unsafe situation which was corrected years later when safety standards were put in place for manufacturers and component designers.

Pontiac Engineering was not perfect by any means when they designed the A-Body Vehicle in 1964. Neither was Chevrolet.

The frame and crossmember was far from being perfect. But it was designed by a designer for a given power level. And then the racers installed bigger and better traction tires and wheels and the owners broke the frames.
A common issue was tearing out the right upper rear frame crossmember, (so Pontiac designed the pieces to reinforce that area of the frame). It was a warranty fix and a potential frame upgrade modification to the A-Body cars.

Point being, Pontiac Designers designed parts to a given specification. If you did not beat on the vehicle the rear cross-member issue would never appear.
So the drivers/owners caused the issues and then blame the Designers for designing sub-standard parts. Pontiac used the "Biscuit" and Clamp" design on the A-Body vehicles for the production life of those A-Bodies.

Good or bad, it is what they did. Right or wrong, you have your opinion on what is a better design vs the Pontiac design. Pontiac is dead. The Pontiac Police are not going to come and see you for modifying your cross-member in your 1964 vehicle. Do whatever you want with your vehicle.

Just don't throw rocks at people who actually did the job for a living and designed a given part based on direction from their upper management.

That comment being said, I personally have a problem with the Cooling and FEAD Design Engineer who changed his design for those systems every year on the 1964 thru 1972 A-Body Model Years. Examples are:
Pulleys are different year by year, water pumps are different, timing covers/water pump flow is different, Power steering stuff is different, and the list goes on and on.

We can have a thread on that guy and his constant changing of component designs vs the common Chevy design pieces.

"If you have never done the Job for a Living, you have an opinion. You may have experience with different parts but you are not an Engineer or Designer." Jim Clarke, a Ford Chief Engineer, said One Piece of DATA is work 10,000 Opinions. You have your opinion, I have mine, modify your cross-member to your hearts desire.

Tom V.

I posted asking about what kind of alternate designs were out there. I never had any interest in keeping the original. It's in the first post, read it again. You and others decided that you were gonna debate the original design with me. I don't care what you, or anyone else, thinks they know about designing crossmembers. Quit wearing your credentials on your sleeve Mr. Bigshot engineer. I work for a major corporation. I've been a mechanic, welder, machinist, and yes engineer there. I've design, fabricated, and installed countless parts myself. Often fixing problems designed by schooled moron engineers. So don't believe for a minute that you're any better than I am. I sure as he!! don't!

[MUSLCAH]

Looks like Chief of the 60’s might have some company…….

[b-man]

Please.