[OldSStroker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug:
OldSStroker,

Good info on the engines, etc. On your statement "By '62, Pontiac had a 4-pinion differential which was used with the 4-sp and the 336", I assume you meant "By 1963" (since the 326/336 wasn't out until 63). It was my understanding that a 4 spd was not available with the 326/336. I assume you meant 3 spd. Is it perhaps that the 4-pinion differential was "standard" on the 326/336 and the 2-pinion standard on the 4-cyl?

Also, do you know if any Corvair (delivery van, truck, etc.) shared the 4 pinion differential?
It is my impression that the ring/pinions for Corvairs/Tempests were interchangeable (although I have no real insight on this.)

Similarly, I think I read somewhere that some Tempests sold for use in "mountainous areas" had 3.90 gears as standard. Any thoughts on that? I thought that there may be good ratios available as a remnant of the era of the John Fitch racing of Corvairs.

P.S. I noticed you are from NY. Several years ago someone from NY tried to start up a 63 Tempest club and ran notices in rod books, etc. I don't think that idea took hold. Were you ever involved in that deal?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sorry about the confusion. If memory serves me correctly, the 4-pinion diff was first used with the (Corvair) 4-speed in '62 with the 4-cylinder engine, probably because of the lower first gear, and more torque multiplication. I ordered my 4-bbl 4-cyl Lemans with the 3-sp because it was stronger than the 4-sp. Unfortunately, only the 2-pinion diff was released for the 3-sp. After "detoothing" side pinions @ 5500 miles and again @ 11,500 miles (on a 12K warranty), they put a 4-pinion in. (I used to race against Corvair Spyders.) The 4-pinion diff was carried over into '63 and was used with the 336.

Now, I do believe that PMD produced some 336 HO Tempests in '63 with the 4-sp. It would be a 70X code. Maybe it was only used with the 3-sp, but I think I saw a 4-sp. It could have been a development car, and not a production car. The trans was the weak link, since if was designed for the 'Vair. Any production ones probably had some transmission warranty work done!


3.90 "mountain" gears might be true. The SD 421 Tempests had 3.90's, I believe, so there was tooling for 39-10 R&P sets.

Pontiac had a "gear and axle" plant which made complete big car rear axle assemblies for Pontiac and Olds, so they also made their own transaxle rear ends. Obviously the transmissions were purchased.

I recall the production process @ Pontiac for the Tempest rear end. The auto transaxle had two concentric shafts passing thru the pinion shaft, so it had to be hollow. Rather than drill and bore 8 or 9 inches, the pinion shaft was made from tubing and externally splined where the pinion gear attached. The pinion gear was blanked out and internally splined. The splines were designed with a huge interference; to assemble them, the gear was induction heated to red, maybe 1000 F, and the shaft was frozen in a bath of alcohol and dry ice @ about -120F. This gives about .010 size difference which should be enough for a shrink fit. However, to assemble them, a 20 (or more) ton hydraulic press forced the cold shaft into the hot gear. The screeching sound could be heard for a hundred feet in the plant. If you were to section the assembled gear, micropolish the sample and etch it to see the grain, you couldn't find the joint. There was just a little grain flow disruption. Those buggers were never going to come apart.

I don't believe Pontiac made R&P's for Corvair. It is possible that the design was the same; I don't know that, however. Chevy could have been doing the same thing.

No, I was never involved in the '63 Tempest deal you refer to.

My favorite Tempests are the '63 Super Duty coupes and wagons. I was fortunate enough to be working @ PMD when they were produced. If you are familiar with PMD people at that time, the name Bill Collins might ring a bell. I recall seeing Bill leave the Engineering building one Dec '62 day in a SD Tempest to drive it to Detroit Dragway for some test runs. They were heater-delete cars of course, so he had on a heavy coat, scarf and gloves. That, with the drag slicks, and 3 inch capped dump pipes under the doors was a sight.

Sorry about the rambling. I'm not as old as I may sound; I was 19 in Dec '62. That was a great time to be at PMD.

With Age comes Wisdom...
sometimes Age shows up alone.

[This message was edited by OldSStroker on January 26, 2003 at 12:31 PM.]

[OldSStroker]

OOps. Tried to edit. Still learning.

[Doug]

Oldsstroker, Good info on all that Tempest stuff.
I've been a fan of those cars since mid-60's. Built my tripower 421/Muncie car in 1969-70. With disconnected exhaust at manifolds (no headers) and with an open rear of whatever a 57 Pontiac had as standard ratios, it would run 13.28@ 108mph quarters on street tires. (Rode like a roller skate though.)
I think that the only existing complete 63 car with all the Super Duty stuff (including the "Powershift") is located in the McClaren (sp?) museum in Arizona. Larry Fleeman (Michigan) on this board is building a SD clone type. He has crawled all in, under and around that museum car taking pictures, etc.

Maybe I'll get a little bit done on my project this year. Been on hold for a few years due to job uncertainty. (Still not that good of prospects though.)

I was 20 in '62. So, you aren't so old after all. The way I look at it is that we were there when it was really happening in the world of hot rods!

[OldSStroker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug:

I've been a fan of those cars since mid-60's. Built my tripower 421/Muncie car in 1969-70. With disconnected exhaust at manifolds (no headers) and with an open rear of whatever a 57 Pontiac had as standard ratios, it would run 13.28@ 108mph quarters on street tires. (Rode like a roller skate though.)
I think that the only existing complete 63 car with all the Super Duty stuff (including the "Powershift") is located in the McClaren (sp?) museum in Arizona. Larry Fleeman (Michigan) on this board is building a SD clone type. He has crawled all in, under and around that museum car taking pictures, etc.

I was 20 in '62. So, you aren't so old after all. The way I look at it is that we were there when it was really happening in the world of hot rods!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are great times. My son's '00 Camaro SS runs 13.3's @ 108 also.

My thought on cloning a '63 Tempest SD would be to use a C5 Vette transaxle. The converter is on the wrong end of the transaxle, but that's not critical. The torque tube is similar, but not curved! I'd also use the C5 fully independent rear rather than swing axles. To keep the 7 inch slicks flat on the road, the SD rear springs had round rubber blocks in the middle which limited spring travel to about 3/8 inch before it hit the rubber.

The SD which won the 250 mile "Challenge Cup" race at '63 Daytona (#50, driven by Paul Goldsmith) had 3 inch under-the-rocker pipes with long 'bullet' mufflers in the middle of the pipes. This could be streetable!

Yes, it sure was fun being there when the muscle car was invented!

With Age comes Wisdom...
sometimes Age shows up alone.

[jusjay]

This has been a very interesting post. I still have a 215 setting just waiting for the me to rebuild it. I have a 62 Tempest conv. that runs just great. I have look into this many times and have review many engine / transaxler setups. What I think I will do is rebuild the 215 and use a newer FI unit with electronic int. For the transaxler, I will try to get a 6 speed sequential tranaxler from a formula ford or formula 3 used. They are as small as the current transaxler and weight less. Will keep you guys posted. Jay

[Doug]

Oldsstroker, I've got a copy of the hot rod mag (name?) article (somewhere in my boxes of rod books) about that 63 that won the 250 mile event.
I think the article is titled "THE TEMPEST THAT WOULD BE KING". It had some other goodies like a tranny oil cooler setup that used a pump driven by a V-belt off the axle. I think the car was set up by RaY Nichols who was a big POntiac Nascar mechanic. ( I have a friend who ended up with a bunch of Nichol's Super Duty stuff). I think I read somewhere that the 63 race winner Tempest "disappeared" and it was rumored that the Germans bought it and took it to Europe to tear it apart to see what all it had in it. I'll have to dig through my mags and freshen up on that car.

Jusjay, I think I recall seeing an Indy or Formula race car on tv a few years ago that was pulling about 14,000 rpm out of the racing motor that evolved from that 215 V8. I've often thought about the possibility of putting together one of the 4cyl engines with a late model (big valve) head and adapting one of the OFFY tripower manifolds that they made for the 4cyl.

[OldSStroker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug:
Oldsstroker, I've got a copy of the hot rod mag (name?) article (somewhere in my boxes of rod books) about that 63 that won the 250 mile event.
I think the article is titled "THE TEMPEST THAT WOULD BE KING". It had some other goodies like a tranny oil cooler setup that used a pump driven by a V-belt off the axle. I think the car was set up by RaY Nichols who was a big POntiac Nascar mechanic. ( I have a friend who ended up with a bunch of Nichol's Super Duty stuff). I think I read somewhere that the 63 race winner Tempest "disappeared" and it was rumored that the Germans bought it and took it to Europe to tear it apart to see what all it had in it. I'll have to dig through my mags and freshen up on that car.

I've often thought about the possibility of putting together one of the 4cyl engines with a late model (big valve) head and adapting one of the OFFY tripower manifolds that they made for the 4cyl.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doug,

I'd really like a copy of that article.

Yeah, Ray Nichels did the prep. Pete McCarthy mentioned the "Black Forest Connection" re. that car. We read the same books.

If I were doing my dream street clone-car, it would be that one. Of course, maybe 4 people in the world would know the significance, and we're 2 of them!

Funny you should mention modernizing a Tempest 4. Another of my "therapy cars" (think about it) uses a 4 cyl Tempest with C5 torque tube driveline, Eedlbrock Performer RPM head, and an Eaton supercharger (3.8L GM size), sorta like Mickey Thompson didon his "little car" dragster.

If you didn't want to blow it, copy the single plane 4-bbl manifold on the 166 hp 4-bbl version (SD manifold was same in aluminum), or better yet,chop up a Victor Pontiac #2957 with a 390 or 500 cfm vacuum Holley. Actually that's my preference. We've run this on'Engine Analyzer Pro' simulation software a couple of times. High 200's on the hp.

The crank is ArmaSteel, with 5 mains. Hey, there was even a 4-bolt 4-cyl, at least according to McCarthy. I don't recall. (memory is the second thing to go). Bottom end wouldn't be a problem!

We ought to do this! My son is an engine builder, so we could get him to do the grunt work, and buy the parts at jobber pricing.

My $.02.

With Age comes Wisdom...
sometimes Age shows up alone.

[Motornoggin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldSStroker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug:
Oldsstroker, I've got a copy of the hot rod mag (name?) article (somewhere in my boxes of rod books) about that 63 that won the 250 mile event.
I think the article is titled "THE TEMPEST THAT WOULD BE KING". It had some other goodies like a tranny oil cooler setup that used a pump driven by a V-belt off the axle. I think the car was set up by RaY Nichols who was a big POntiac Nascar mechanic. ( I have a friend who ended up with a bunch of Nichol's Super Duty stuff). I think I read somewhere that the 63 race winner Tempest "disappeared" and it was rumored that the Germans bought it and took it to Europe to tear it apart to see what all it had in it. I'll have to dig through my mags and freshen up on that car.

I've often thought about the possibility of putting together one of the 4cyl engines with a late model (big valve) head and adapting one of the OFFY tripower manifolds that they made for the 4cyl.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doug,

I'd really like a copy of that article.

Yeah, Ray Nichels did the prep. Pete McCarthy mentioned the "Black Forest Connection" re. that car. We read the same books.

If I were doing my dream street clone-car, it would be that one. Of course, maybe 4 people in the world would know the significance, and we're 2 of them!

Funny you should mention modernizing a Tempest 4. Another of my "therapy cars" (think about it) uses a 4 cyl Tempest with C5 torque tube driveline, Eedlbrock Performer RPM head, and an Eaton supercharger (3.8L GM size), sorta like Mickey Thompson didon his "little car" dragster.

If you didn't want to blow it, copy the single plane 4-bbl manifold on the 166 hp 4-bbl version (SD manifold was same in aluminum), or better yet,chop up a Victor Pontiac #2957 with a 390 or 500 cfm vacuum Holley. Actually that's my preference. We've run this on'Engine Analyzer Pro' simulation software a couple of times. High 200's on the hp.

The crank is ArmaSteel, with 5 mains. Hey, there was even a 4-bolt 4-cyl, at least according to McCarthy. I don't recall. (memory is the second thing to go). Bottom end wouldn't be a problem!

We ought to do this! My son is an engine builder, so we could get him to do the grunt work, and buy the parts at jobber pricing.

My $.02.

_With Age comes Wisdom...
sometimes Age shows up alone._<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My father and I have a hotted up 4cyl for our 63 LeMans. Pics are in the link in my sig. It has Eagle H-beam rods, Forged Ross pistons, Howard solid roller cam (.600+ lift) w/full roller valve train, ported #16 big valve head, Doug's four tube header, main and head studs. We just finished doing up a Street Dominator intake for it. Should run pretty good.

Prevert? I'm way past that! I'm a Postvert!
http://community.webshots.com/user/motornoggin

[OldSStroker]

Thanks for the pics. It made my heart skip and brought a tear. Maximum cool!

How about pics of the intake when you can.

What cam? The most aggressive I ever heard of was a McKellar 6 or 7 solid. Bet finding one would be damn near impossible. If you were willing to accept a smaller base circle, one of the aftermarket grinders could probably regrind a stock one.

With Age comes Wisdom...
sometimes Age shows up alone.

[Motornoggin]

Thanks for the kind words. Even if this engine doesn't ever run, it sure has been a good conversation piece! Yes, cams are very hard to find, but with the advent of cnc machining, there are a few companies that will grind a billet v-8 blank to 4cyl specs, but it is costly. The cam I found is a reground solid roller from Howard. I bought it from a guy that still races the 195 in a rail dragster. He runs aspirated on alky and in a 2300# rail ran low 9's at almost 150! This cam was one of his that had been reprofiled for a gasoline motor. I will get a few pics of the intake up on my webshots account soon. Been meaning to, just haven't gotten around to it yet. I am going to run an EFI system too. I have a big two barrel tbi now, but will eventualy upgrade to port injection as funds allow.

Prevert? I'm way past that! I'm a Postvert!
http://community.webshots.com/user/motornoggin

The 215ci also came stock in the Apollo. Built by Milt Brown @ Apollo Motor Cars in Berkely, Ca. At that time they rated it at 200-215hp. Out of 72 cars built there are 6 known to be left. Too many stuffed into trees, 2300 lb car. Car and Driver ran a feature on it as well. Compared it to E-type Jag and the Corvette stingray. All 3 were very close in the 1/4. This car 1st appeared in the 1st Herbie the Love Bug movie where is was know as the special. It was yellow with black stripe in the movie. Shown on rotating platform in Berkely. That little motor kicks butt.
He also has a spare 215 from Buick special. so far top speed around 145. In the 60's he took it from San Jose, CA to Las Vegas in less than 5 hrs averaging 120...and got 25mpg while doing it.. You can pick this motor up off the ground with the heads and intake on it! Build it..you'll love it :cool

oops..When it was rebuilt it had to have 2 sleeves replaced. everything else was okay. Stock cam and heads..They are putting these in small planes these days supercharged they make 460 hp. Just my $.02