[SWEETJUDGE]

no one has mentioned the cornering lamps. Didnt some of the early ads have cars with these. I know you either lovem or hate em, but they were on some of these cars werent they?

[Big Injun]

The first 2000 were all Carousel Red for a reason. It was a marketing ploy. Being that all of the cars were the same color, the consumer was tricked into thinking that there were a lot more Judges on the road than actually were while at the same time embedding the image of the car onto potential buyers.

Another point is that many of the first cars were also programmed as “dealer racers” whereby the factory guaranteed replacement engine and drive-line parts for one year if the dealer utilized the car as promotion at local drag strips.

Finally, the rear quarter molding was deleted shortly after production because DeLorean did not like the look of the molding. This “delete” only occurred for a short time as all of the rear sheet metal was already stamped with the holes for the molding. To fill/repair the holes was very costly so the molding was put back on the cars shortly thereafter.

[Karch]

hmm...

[trishieldchief]

My 69 RAIV 4 speed GTO Judge was built at head Pontiac plant 2nd week of May 1969 .

[SpartanMSU]

Hi, Dave . . . I understand what you say about the marketing ploy, but I've never heard about it for the Judge. I've heard about it for dark blue '63 Grand Prixs, though. Do you think you're using the right explanation for the wrong car?

I've heard a lot of things about Judges, such as the first 2000 or the missing medallions or the color. I can't keep track anymore on what's true and what's not. For example, I've heard that any color was available from the very beginning, which is different from the prevailing wisdom.

You'd think, with as many as they made, we'd have a better idea of the '69 Judge, but it's still enigmatic in some respects.

[Steve Hoog]

I'll wager that Dave's information is close to on target for the way things were.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

SEMI NON-RELATED Story: Yellow Olds Ralley 350

I worked at a Cadillac/Oldsmobile dealership body shop in mid 80's. Muscle Cars were starting to regain popularity again about then. One of the painters I worked with had been there since the late 60's. He knew a lot of specifics about the 442's etc... of the glory days.

The best tale he ever told me was about our dealership buying a "mass-purchase" (probably at a hellacious discount) of 25 Yellow Ralley 350 Cars. The sales manager somehow felt the Cars would sell really good and be as popular with the public as the Orange Pontiac Judges of 69.

6 months after they rolled in, over half were still there. Then they started painting some of them in different colors and putting them back on the lot. That helped sell some more. Then they offered any interested buyer his choice of color change at no-charge. The 72 model Cars were about to come in before they got rid of them all, at marked down prices plus free color changes. Some of the old timer guys in sales confirmed the story for me. It was like a long-standing "laugh at the dumbazz sales manager" back then around the place. The guy resigned before they all got sold, they say he was tired of seeing/hearing about them on the lot.

I don't know a lot about those type Cars specifically. But if you happen across a 70 Cutlass that has a rear spoiler, bumper/exhaust cut-outs, and has a Yellow paint code but has had a complete color change, you probably just found one of the Bastard Cars from Black Cadillac.

I guess the subliminal Orange trick Dave mentioned worked on that sales manager back then. He probably anticipated selling all of those and maybe even ordering some more before the years end. Thinking Orange Judges had been selling by the dozens.

[Guilty]

My 1969 judge was built in fremont. It's a carousel red ram3 w/pdb ps hood tach wood wheel auto w/console no remote mirror and is so original its still got the factory exhaust system with resonators on it. No glovebox emblem either. 80,xxx original miles and looks to have never been apart. In fact it still has the original black CA plate too.

[Big Injun]

Originally Posted by SpartanMSU

Hi, Dave . . . I understand what you say about the marketing ploy, but I've never heard about it for the Judge. I've heard about it for dark blue '63 Grand Prixs, though. Do you think you're using the right explanation for the wrong car?

Yes, this same ploy was used on both the '63 Grand Prix and the '69 Judge. As I am often told, "It is all in the book." Jim Wangers' book, "Glory Days" available at www.geetotiger.com. The correct story (about a lot of things) as told by one of the few living men who was there and directly participated.

By the way, this is a very good thread...and I have been impressed by the wealth of knowledge.

The first 2000, though programed cars, were available with many options...3-speed manual trans, close and wide ratio 4-speeds, automatics, 3.90 & 4.33 rear ends...just about everything but Hidden Headlights, AC and Power Windows.

[Todd Kozak]

thanks to everyone that provided good intelligent info...you know who you are

[judgeragtop]

[QUOTE=Baron Von Zeppelin]SEMI NON-RELATED Story: Yellow Olds Ralley 350

I worked at a Cadillac/Oldsmobile dealership body shop in mid 80's. Muscle Cars were starting to regain popularity again about then. One of the painters I worked with had been there since the late 60's. He knew a lot of specifics about the 442's etc... of the glory days.....


That happened to a lot of Olds dealerships with the Rallye 350. Most people didnt like the painted bumpers and yellow was a love it or hate it color. There were a lot of 350's that were sold with chrome bumpers, vinyl tops added, color changes. I had one for years. not a bad car, just a little under powered compared to the 455 4-4-2's and ram air goats.

[GTO JOHN]

This has been an excellent and informative thread. Thanks Baron for the heads up on the 70-72 post applicable to my car.

[Buck Wilde]

SupercarBob

I have a 1969 Judge build the 4th week in January (01D) that meets all of your critera for a factory/zone order for an automatic except it doesn't have A/C. Was A/C supposed to be part of the package for the automatic factory/zone order cars?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

BUCK : looks like the "pattern Automatic" did include A/C as stated by Bob and documented by SWEET's document. The order number on your PHS invoice or billing history will have the 000** pattern code if it is a pattern Car. Check yours and see - always a slim chance it was made with an engineering note to delete it from a pattern car.


GeeTO Tiger: Thanks for telling us your data plate build code of 2C. Ram4King and I were mislead by your shipped date of 3/11 . It is about 15-20 days later than than the build, on up in March. YOURS is DEFINITELY one of the Pattern Cars and first slated 2000. But it was built 15-20 days before a dealer (Hockett Pontiac) put in an order that caught with your Car. It was built and waiting for enough orders to come in and get it. Didn't take too long to get them all sent out to dealers.

Mine is 2C of Baltimore and shipped 2/20, but not quite as well equipped as the Pattern 4speeds. I think those with the zone order 000** built before the end of February are the ones holding the Historical signifigance of being the "First 2000".

Pontiac KNEW they were going to build at least those 2000 zone order patterns regardless of any other orders or not - straight up and down. All others like mine were built when - and - as - requested.

[Buck Wilde]

My car fits the guidelines for a pattern automatic judge. The dealer order is 00032 and there is 06 991 in the right hand corner of the invoice. There are two things on the invoice that maybe could indicate the change to delete A/C but I'm not really sure what they mean. They are:

ADV.ASSN.COL - CODE 066 - AMOUNT 10.00
OPTIONAL LOC - CODE 066 - (NO AMOUNT LISTED)

It seems kind of odd that they would deviate from the pattern cars at random or on a case by case basis. This car was shipped to PA. Do you think there is a chance that pattern automatic cars that were shipped north didn't get A/C? Maybe there were southern and northern automatic pattern cars? I would think Pontiac would want pattern cars to be sent all over the country. However, putting A/C in an automatic pattern car headed for Minnesota or Wisconsin would make them more expensive and harder to sell in areas where you didn't really need A/C.

This may have been covered before but when was it determined where a pattern car was going to be shipped? Did this happen before it was built based on the zone info?

[Geeto Tiger]

Buck: The first one is like an advertising charge. The dealer does some advertising, and pay's it off buy tacking $10 to your car. The second one is that your car was dropped off at an optional LOCaton.

Baron: Wow thats awsome, so that car sat for awhile before a dealer took it? I was hoping Hocket automatically picked it up..

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by supcarbob

I have seen these cars with/without glove box emblem. It is based on assembly date. Earliest built factory/zone pattern order I have seen is 3rd week of January. Fremont plant appears to have started production before all other 5 plants. Earliest build dates from other 5 plants all appear to have started last week of January and invoice billing between 2/12 to 2/17.

My car is a pattern 4-speed Judge from Baltimore built 01C and shipped 2-5-69 to Epperly Pontiac in Christainsburg, VA. It used zone order #00051. It came with the GTO on the dash, stainless on the quarters, trim on the trunk lid and no glove box emblem. It had one of the 1968 type ram air carbs built in December 1968. The two previous owners said that the carb was not changed--I tracked them down.

I will try to scan the PHS sheet in case anyone wants to see it. I have REALLY enjoyed reading all this! Thanks, Michael

[Geeto Tiger]

we have another pattern Judge on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-...QQcmdZViewItem

[md1twal3]

Guys, my Judge is the 3rd week of Feb Judge and has the same dates on the PHS as the one that is currently on e-bay. Mine is a Framingham car and I do not believe that mine is a pattern Judge. If the pattern intales all options mentioned, mine doesn't have a console, and has the 8-track.

Thoughts?

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by md1twal3

Guys, my Judge is the 3rd week of Feb Judge and has the same dates on the PHS as the one that is currently on e-bay. Mine is a Framingham car and I do not believe that mine is a pattern Judge. If the pattern intales all options mentioned, mine doesn't have a console, and has the 8-track.

Thoughts?

If you have the PHS, the invoice dealer code will begin with three zeros if it is a pattern. Yours is apparently not a pattern.

I cannot tell if the dealer code for the one on e-bay begins with three zeros. I cannot see it well enough. The options appear right. Maybe the third week of Feb marks the change from the pattern cars.