[ZeGermanHam]

When I first obtained the PHS documents for my '66 GTO about 12 years ago, I was unable to find out who the dealership was that first sold the car. The paperwork says Zone 17 (Jacksonville, FL), Dealer 079 (???). There are numerous lists of Pontiac zone and dealer codes, but none of them seem to have any info on this particular dealer. I know it was somewhere in Jacksonville, Florida, but that's all I know.

I suppose it's a long shot, but does anyone here have info on which dealer this was? I figured that in the 12 years that have passed since I last looked, someone would've figured it out, but apparently that is not the case.

[dataway]

Sure it wasn't a Zone Lot ... or whatever they call them? They will have a dealer code, but the dealership doesn't exist ... it's a regional storage lot for spec cars that get distributed to the dealerships on request.

At least that's the way it was explained to me.

[Held for Ransom]

17 078 was Coggin Pontiac, located in Jacksonville, FL (don't know the year it was gathered from). I can only assume it was the same dealership with another dealer code.

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by dataway

Sure it wasn't a Zone Lot ... or whatever they call them? They will have a dealer code, but the dealership doesn't exist ... it's a regional storage lot for spec cars that get distributed to the dealerships on request.

At least that's the way it was explained to me.

Huh... Interesting. I've never heard of this concept before. Perhaps this is the case, thus explaining why dealer 17/079 is missing from all dealer code databases I've come across.

[johnta1]

The problem is that there is no list of Pontiac dealers, at least that is being put out.

They were generally in alphabetical order. (at least when 1st ones issued, if sold, new number may have been given or newer dealer)

The 078 dealer - Coggin Pontiac and the 080 dealer is Colonial Pontiac, the 079 would be between cog and col.

I'd almost say the 079 dealer is one of those 2?
Some had more than one number, maybe because how big they were?
(or different cities)

[johnta1]

The regional or zone dealer numbers were generally in the 99x range.
(for each zone number)

[dataway]

True .... my 68 zone delivered car is Zone 19 Dealer 992 ... which was a zone lot for Memphis (which is where I bought the car).

[John V.]

You can purchase an excellent reproduction Window Sticker from PY member Mike Noun. If he has 17-089 on his list he will identify it on the Window Sticker.

If he doesn't have it, the only way I know to discover it is to purchase a repro Window Sticker from PHS. They reportedly have a complete list. But their Window Sticker reproductions aren't as accurate and you'd need to check other references to be sure whatever Dealer name PHS associates with 17-089 was actually the name of the dealership at the time your car was originally retailed. To my knowledge, PHS isn't real careful about it and doesn't do the research, just goes by whatever list they have and they don't make their list public.

Coggin, for example according to the history didn't open his Pontiac dealership in Jacksonville until 1968. Coggin is a well known brand around here and originally privately owned by Luther Coggin but it didn't exist in 1966. When he was given the new franchise in '68, there were two other Pontiac dealerships in Jacksonville but I don't know their names.

Prior to coming to Jacksonville, Luther Coggin had part ownership in the small Pontiac-Olds dealership in Marianna, Fla from about April 1967 until he sold out after getting the Jacksonville franchise. I don't know what the Marianna franchise was called, but it also would not have been around in 1966.

The Zone Office was located in Jacksonville not far from where I currently live but the dealerships it covered were all over Fla and a part of Georgia. Not easy to track down a dealer by Google even knowing where it falls alphabetically.

"Coleman" would be a good fit but I could not find a Coleman Pontiac anywhere in Florida or Georgia although there was an Ed Coleman Buick-Olds dealership at one time in Waycross, GA. Waycross would be in the Jax Zone but no evidence that they were ever a Pontiac dealer.

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by John V.

You can purchase an excellent reproduction Window Sticker from PY member Mike Noun. If he has 17-089 on his list he will identify it on the Window Sticker.

If he doesn't have it, the only way I know to discover it is to purchase a repro Window Sticker from PHS. They reportedly have a complete list. But their Window Sticker reproductions aren't as accurate and you'd need to check other references to be sure whatever Dealer name PHS associates with 17-089 was actually the name of the dealership at the time your car was originally retailed. To my knowledge, PHS isn't real careful about it and doesn't do the research, just goes by whatever list they have and they don't make their list public.

Coggin, for example according to the history didn't open his Pontiac dealership in Jacksonville until 1968. Coggin is a well known brand around here and originally privately owned by Luther Coggin but it didn't exist in 1966. When he was given the new franchise in '68, there were two other Pontiac dealerships in Jacksonville but I don't know their names.

Prior to coming to Jacksonville, Luther Coggin had part ownership in the small Pontiac-Olds dealership in Marianna, Fla from about April 1967 until he sold out after getting the Jacksonville franchise. I don't know what the Marianna franchise was called, but it also would not have been around in 1966.

The Zone Office was located in Jacksonville not far from where I currently live but the dealerships it covered were all over Fla and a part of Georgia. Not easy to track down a dealer by Google even knowing where it falls alphabetically.

"Coleman" would be a good fit but I could not find a Coleman Pontiac anywhere in Florida or Georgia although there was an Ed Coleman Buick-Olds dealership at one time in Waycross, GA. Waycross would be in the Jax Zone but no evidence that they were ever a Pontiac dealer.

John, thank you very much for this information. I'll try to track down Mike Noun to inquire about a window sticker and whether he has any insight on the dealer.

[John V.]

Link to his website:

http://musclecarfilms.com/PontiacWindowSticker

Or PM him here, his screen name is "Mike Noun".

[WQ59B]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Some had more than one number, maybe because how big they were? (or different cities)

From what a dealer told me personally, codes can change if the dealership 1. changed owner, 2. changed name, 3. changed location. BUT, I've seen info where a dealership changed names and 'assumed' the prior dealers' code.

[Bluesugar]

"Platt Pontiac" was the dealership in Jacksonville,Fla. I bought my GTO from in 1968,they are no longer in business,
this was way before Coggin.I remember my dad bought a new '59 Bonnie and then a '62 Star Chief,and then a '67 Ventura.
Those were the cars that made me a Pontiac man,..."Platt Pontiac" was located on Phillips Hywy. south Jax.
There was also, "Claude Nolan Cadillac/Pontiac" in downtown Jax. on Main St.,they are now
"Claude Nolan Cadillac" south of Jacksonville,Fla.

[johnta1]

Are you sure of the spelling for Claude Nolan?

I have it as Claude Nowlan, but i'd have to see if it was from a PHS I have or someone else's input.
(I'd correct it if mine is wrong)

I also have a 1974 TA PHS as being sold at Platt Pontiac, so they were open in 1974.

[Bluesugar]

It is without a doubt spelled "Claude Nolan" John, as we still have the CTS Sportwagon we purchased from them.

[johnta1]

Thanks!

[WQ59B]

Originally Posted by ZeGermanHam

When I first obtained the PHS documents for my '66 GTO about 12 years ago, I was unable to find out who the dealership was that first sold the car. The paperwork says Zone 17 (Jacksonville, FL), Dealer 079 (???). There are numerous lists of Pontiac zone and dealer codes, but none of them seem to have any info on this particular dealer. I know it was somewhere in Jacksonville, Florida, but that's all I know.

I suppose it's a long shot, but does anyone here have info on which dealer this was? I figured that in the 12 years that have passed since I last looked, someone would've figured it out, but apparently that is not the case.

17 079 : Courtesy Pontiac Inc, 650 Highway 17-92 North, Longwood FL.

McCarthy's book lists the code for '62 (sans dealer ID), I got the code from the Turbo Trans-Am list for '89. Would probably like to see verification for '66; at the least the address could be different that far back from '89.

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by WQ59B

17 079 : Courtesy Pontiac Inc, 650 Highway 17-92 North, Longwood FL.

McCarthy's book lists the code for '62 (sans dealer ID), I got the code from the Turbo Trans-Am list for '89. Would probably like to see verification for '66; at the least the address could be different that far back from '89.

This is interesting information! I have a hunch that you are right and it could have been sold at Courtesy Pontiac. As far as the address goes, the 650 North Highway 17-92 location may not be accurate for anything built before 1988. I found the following video on Facebook showing that this particular Courtesy Pontiac location was brand new in '88. Looks like it's currently a Mazda dealership.

https://www.facebook.com/30.Milliont...2156205493832/

That said, when Googling "Courtesy Pontiac, Lakewood, FL", a second address also pops up, which is 905 Florida Ave, Longwood, FL. It's about a 1/4 mile up the road from the other address, and is currently an AutoNation site. Perhaps this was the other Courtesy Pontiac location where they sold Pontiacs prior to opening the new location up the street in '88.

[John V.]

Excellent find!

But I'm skeptical that the dealership was Courtesy in 1966. First, it does not fit the alphabetical assignment that PMD used.

But more importantly, Courtesy is a "mega" dealer with multiple locations and car lines in Florida that has since sold to an even larger automotive group. Asbury Automotive Group bought out the Courtesy group of dealers in 1998.

The Courtesy branded dealerships continued to operate under the Courtesy name after the sale to Asbury. The Longwood location was a multi-line dealership operating as Courtesy Pontiac-Buick-GMC when the decision was made to shutter this location in late 2008, not long before Pontiac itself was dissolved. In announcing the closure, Courtesy explained that this was the only location they were closing, their other Florida dealerships remained in business. The decision to close the Longwood dealership was a financial one by Courtesy owing to low sales in a crowded market.

I am pursuing a lead to see if I can learn the name of the Pontiac dealership in Longwood circa 1966.

These "mega" dealers typically materialized well after the '60s as I remember it. I seem to recall that GM frowned on their dealerships taking on competitive brands. The "mega" dealers blew that up especially once GM began losing market share. These successful conglomerate dealers held a lot of clout and GM was forced to accept that they would sell multiple car lines at the same location with just separate storefronts. And the "mega' dealers just gobbled up the single line small dealers as they were formed.

My belief is that such a shop existed in Longwood and it was gobbled up by Courtesy, likely some time in the '80s. Prior to that time, Courtesy would not have existed, or if it did, was likely not the Longwood dealership as their Corp. office was in Tampa and where I believe Courtesy originated.

I will report back whatever I can learn from the source I am pursuing.

One thing I think I have figured out in the past few years. I had always wondered how come PMD had "room" to assign about 15,000 dealer nos. or more. They never had anywhere close to that many dealerships. What I believe PMD did when they first created this system was assign dealer nos. to their existing dealers with nos. that ended in a 5 or 0. That way, there was room to add 4 new dealers between the originally assigned nos. and still maintain alphabetical order as new dealerships were formed. And likely they left even bigger gaps in some cases. Note, alphabetical order was lost when dealerships changed hands and were renamed as dealer nos. were retained, so this only applies to the formation of an entirely new dealership from scratch. This scheme could have eventually failed to maintain alphabetical order but I'm only aware of a single dealer name that was not in alphabetical order when originally assigned. And that was due, I believe, because PMD failed to realize that the dealer's unusual name was not a last name. Talmadge "Babe" Wood formed his Pontiac dealership in 1939 as Talmadge Babe Wood Pontiac. His given name was actually Samuel Talmadge Wood but he went by Talmadge or the nickname "Babe". His dealer no. should have been assigned alphabetically under the "W"s for his last name "Wood" which was invariaby done when a dealership was named for the owner rather than a common word or place and never by a first name . But whoever assigned the dealer no. assigned it under the "T"s for Talmadge. As an existing dealer when PMD first issued the dealer nos., his was 23-355 (note, it ended in a 5).

[ZeGermanHam]

Bringing this thread back from the dead as it seems I have finally gotten to the bottom of which dealer 17-079 actually was. Perhaps the info will help others.

In requesting a reproduction window sticker from Mike Noun, he was able to say with 99% certainty that dealer 17-079 is a secondary location for Colonial Pontiac, in Miami, FL. Mike does not have 17-079 in his dealer database (nobody does), but he knows my car went to Florida and the dealer name started with the letters "Co". As the discussion swirled around 079 possibly being a secondary lot for Coggin Pontiac (Jacksonville), Courtesy Pontiac (Longwood), or Colonial Pontiac (Miami), it became evident that dealer 079 was indeed a secondary location of Colonial (080) in Miami for one very specific reason: The destination charge on my billing history.

Mike has an original window sticker for a 1966 GTO delivered to Packer Pontiac in Miami. The destination charge for transport of that GTO from the Pontiac, MI assembly plant to Packer Pontiac in Miami matches the amount on my billing history to the penny. Since Mike knows my car went to a dealer in Florida with a name that starts with "Co", and the destination charge on my billing invoice matches exactly what Pontiac charged for transport to Miami, and there was a dealer in Miami named Colonial Pontiac, dealer 17-079 has to be a secondary location for Colonial Pontiac (080). Dealer 079 couldn't be a secondary location for Coggin or Courtesy because the destination charge would be different. The only scenario that would call this reasoning into question would be if there was a second Pontiac dealer located in Miami with a name that also started with "Co", but that is highly unlikely.

So there ya have it. 17-079 is a secondary location for Colonial Pontiac in Miami. I'd love to get some period photographs of the dealer, but haven' been able to find anything yet.

[einstein]

Sidebar on Courtesy Longwood. I bought a new T1000 from Courtesy in 1984. They were a bit farther north on 17-92 with a Sanford address. Fast-forward a few years and a new Pontiac club had formed in central Florida. The Wide Track Warriors first car show was at Courtesy who had relocated to the Longwood address. I believe that was about 1990 give or take a year.

PS bought a new 84 Firebird the same week from McNamara Orlando from Ron Cuddeback, the son-in-law of our Sanford salesman. Ron sold us cars again in 87 and 90 at McNamara. He was at McNamara probably 30 years or more, back to when they had a GMC Motorhome dealership.