#1  
Old 07-06-2021, 10:17 PM
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Default 63 GP - very strange 8 lugs issues

I haven't post for a long long time because they're nothing to post about.

I've had the silver 63 GP for 21 years now and other than the nightmare I had with fuel pumps seven or eight years ago, have had very few issues.

I've been running John's repop front hubs for the last eight years or so or whenever it was that he was producing them. I've had a mild thump that I've put up with all of these years, but other than that, no issues. They run cool, stop evenly and run virtually the same temp from side to so side, measured with a heat gun.

Ok, now comes ebay and I saw a set listed for sale that were supposedly refurbished. The son was selling because the father with no ebay account sold his 63 project car before it was finished enough to use the 8-lugs.

Hubs were relined and unused since the reline. I cleaned them up a little more by polishing the ribs and clear coating them as I have with every set I ever had of these.

Last time I drove it right before I replaced the front hubs. there was only a 1 degree difference between right and left, 151 and 152.

I installed them Saturday and everything came together fine

Replaced hubs with new Timken inner and outer bearings and adjusted as best I could by feel. I went for a drive. It was fine for a few minutes and then the right side started shaking. Pulled over and looked and could see nothing wrong. Drove some more and it was just getting worse so headed home. Measured with the heat gun and left side was 181 degrees and the right was 300 ... way way too hot for as easily as I was driving. I lifted the nose and spun the wheel and it spun fine. The left hub is fine.

Today, I dove in and took it all apart. Did wheel bearing again then just took it for a short drive. For the first few minutes it was ok then started pulling to the right while braking. Drove very gently.

Headed home and it measured left side at 155 and the right at 255. Raised the car again and the right wheel spun freely.

Summary, I don't begin to get it. What am I missing here? I had 8-lugs on my first new car in 1962 so decades of experience and have never experienced anything like this. Absolutely, no sign of anything wrong. I would have tried my re-pop eight lugs, but they're in getting turned and then I'll refinish. I won't get them back until Friday or next Monday and this will drive me nuts until then.

I'm 78 so its gotta be something I'm missing, but I sure can't see it or figure it out.


Last edited by 61 389-348; 07-06-2021 at 10:50 PM.
  #2  
Old 07-07-2021, 01:55 AM
sprintbird sprintbird is offline
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Rubber brake line gone bad? They do that sometimes and don’t allow the brake fluid to return. Acts as a check valve.

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Old 07-07-2021, 08:40 AM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
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IMO, you have to take a systematic approach to this diagnosis. You have a temp gun, so you are used to this. First thing I would do is switch the drums right to left and adjust. Do nothing else and drive it. If the problem moves with the drum, the drum is the problem. If the problem stays with the right side of the car, it must be the shoes, springs, wheel cylinder or flex hose. Nothing else in there. Most likely is the flex hose as mentioned above, replace it first, then possibly a wheel cylinder piston sticking in it's bore would be second, followed by a shoe/spring problem. Good luck with it and report back.

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Old 07-07-2021, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by sprintbird View Post
Rubber brake line gone bad? They do that sometimes and don’t allow the brake fluid to return. Acts as a check valve.
I did a thorough brake job three years ago, also doing cylinders and lines. I'm going to order the same today so I can do it again.

I drove it again very easily for a while last night. Pulls to the right with brakes, but otherwise drives straight. Got home and left side was 151 degrees and right was 255. Thinking the same thing as you, I jacked the car up immediately and tried to turn the right wheel. It turned fine. Same thing while I'm driving, it pulls to the right with the brakes, but I release the brake and it drives straight.

I'm going to take the John Piotrowski hubs and have them turned for the first time to see if I can get the minor thump out of them. Then put the right side one back on again. Except for the mild thump, they've been fine all of these years and are balanced side to side.

I checked temp on both sides before I put the 'new' hubs on and was 151 and 152 so zero pulling. Put these 'new' hubs on and it was 181 and 300 degrees. 300 degrees is a BIG problem for as easily as I was driving.

I used the seller's new inner bearings and only repacked them so at first I thought it was a bad inner bearing. I've now replaced and repacked the inner bearings two more times.

I changed nothing else other than hubs with new inner and outer bearings.

Why can't things be simple once in a while??????

  #5  
Old 07-07-2021, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
IMO, you have to take a systematic approach to this diagnosis. You have a temp gun, so you are used to this. First thing I would do is switch the drums right to left and adjust. Do nothing else and drive it. If the problem moves with the drum, the drum is the problem. If the problem stays with the right side of the car, it must be the shoes, springs, wheel cylinder or flex hose. Nothing else in there. Most likely is the flex hose as mentioned above, replace it first, then possibly a wheel cylinder piston sticking in it's bore would be second, followed by a shoe/spring problem. Good luck with it and report back.
I'm leaving now to take the previous John Piotrowski hubs in to have them turned, and then freshen them up a bit so I have them to put back on and stay on.

They were amazingly well balanced from side to side for years with only a few degrees difference. When I have these back to use if needed, then I'm going to switch sides with what's on there to see if the problem moves sides or stays where it is. Nothing else I can really do until I can experiment and isolate the issue a bit.

It would be a hell of a coincidence if the brake line just happened to fail at the time I switch out for the 'new' hubs.

  #6  
Old 07-07-2021, 04:13 PM
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Default Brakes

Your brake adjustment is too tight. Adjusting 8 lug drums is done differently than the typical 5 bolt hubs. Spin the wheel till it drags, then back off 10-12 clicks. The aluminum hubs swell with heat & if they are adjusted too tight the drum will heat up & the car will pull to that side. I had the same problem with my '62 GP & this system stopped that problem.

  #7  
Old 07-07-2021, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cheese country GP View Post
Your brake adjustment is too tight. Adjusting 8 lug drums is done differently than the typical 5 bolt hubs. Spin the wheel till it drags, then back off 10-12 clicks. The aluminum hubs swell with heat & if they are adjusted too tight the drum will heat up & the car will pull to that side. I had the same problem with my '62 GP & this system stopped that problem.
It was adjusted very loose, pedal getting too low, loose. I was going to let the auto adjusters pull it tighter and get the pedal up a bit.

And actually, it would work the other way around. Too much heat in the aluminum drum, or any drum, would cause it to expand away from the brake shoes, hence, brake fade. I had just a bit of drag, but after driving and that drum getting that hot, no drag at all when I got home, put it up in the air and spun that wheel.


Last edited by 61 389-348; 07-07-2021 at 05:49 PM.
  #8  
Old 07-09-2021, 11:30 AM
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Very interesting. I have pics of both hubs, the old John P repops, which were fine for the last seven or so years other than a mild thump and the relined ones I just got off of ebay.

The bearing race on the ones I just got sits about a 1/4" or so deeper into the hub than the John P repops. Hmmmm ???? I didn't change the races in the ones I just got

Below is the John P repop hub that I just got back from the machine shop, that were fine on the car for years. This one is going back on in a few minutes.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KxmYjzrF2rv6W8Ra7

And below is one of the two that I just got off of ebay that hit 300 degrees a couple of days ago. With this one, the race is set about a 1/4" deeper into the hub. This drum is heading to the machine shop to get that race replaced and turned since its now thumping pretty well. Wonder if this is the issue? Shoes weren't dragging when I took the drum off. There's nothing else that I see wrong.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/dv4SuR2DYJ1SHkYb7

  #9  
Old 07-09-2021, 12:53 PM
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If the bearing race sits deeper on the OEM hub and drum, does that mean its contact with the brake shoes is also 1/4" offset from the reproduction hub and drum? When mounted on the car, is the drum closer to the backing plate?

  #10  
Old 07-09-2021, 01:29 PM
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If the bearing race sits deeper on the OEM hub and drum, does that mean its contact with the brake shoes is also 1/4" offset from the reproduction hub and drum? When mounted on the car, is the drum closer to the backing plate?
I didn't have the presence of mind to look. I generally have to fiddle with adjustment a bit before I let the auto adjusters take over so I'll look next time I'm under there.

I have about 30min of work to do in my office and then I'm going to go drive a bit with my old (repop) hub back on there and see what the temps look like.

That will tell me, drum or something in the brake.

  #11  
Old 07-09-2021, 02:20 PM
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I drove for a about 30 minutes. left side is adjusted a little tighter than the right so what I see in the temp numbers reflect that.

Pulls a touch to the left now and the left drum is 168 degrees. Right drum is 148, which is where that one has always been.

So it's the drum. I have no idea what the issue is, but heading back out to the machine shop to replace that race and get this one turned.

When I get back I'll adjust the right to where the left is and I should be good to go.

  #12  
Old 08-16-2021, 12:26 PM
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Grasping at straws, here: but now that the drum is identified as the likely culprit.

Is the liner in the new hub glued in or pinned?

Thinking that the steel friction liner may be creeping under braking. Would be easy enough to check with a few paint dots.

Look forward to hearing how this turns out

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Old 08-30-2021, 04:01 PM
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Sir, do yourself a favor and buy a full set of iron drums and a nice set of Wheel Vintiques Series 64 chrome reverse wheels from Summit. They come in the 15 x 7 with a 4.25 back space. Get them balanced on the Hunter Road Force balancer and go enjoy the time you have left with this car..

You have a set of Rodger Rhiels relined 8 lug drums. I went through hell with those drums. Then I bought those repo 15" 8 lug wheels that weigh 100 lbs each. That made matters even worse.. Kelsey Hayes knew those drums needed lighter rims so in 67-68 they removed as much steel as possible from the rim. Thats why the 67 and 68 8 lugs had a checker looking band and always seemed to work best for me..

This worked one time for me, take the drum and torque the wheel to it, mark everything and take it to the machine shop and have them true the drums down with the rims bolted to the drums. After doing this make sure you only use the rim with that drum in the exact spot it was machined in..

I finally got a good set of originals from Franks Pontiac Parts. Trouble was all he had was two fronts, I couldn't find rears. I finally pitched the whole deal and went with the iron drums just like the NASCAR Pontiacs had.. Frank told me almost every 8 lug drum he has seen in his life time was corroded between the aluminum drum and the iron liner. These two metals expand and contract at different levels. When one side is hot and the other cooler moister gets in between the liner and hub and they corrode. This causes high spots every time the temperature changes or something to that effect. They tried using some kind of epoxy but they never finished it...

You will be so happy with the iron drums. They ride smoothly and stop just as fast as the aluminum drums did. I bought a set of Cooper tires from Diamond Back, they removed all the sidewall printing, they looked just like the old Bias Ply tires..


Last edited by 389; 04-25-2022 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 08-30-2021, 08:22 PM
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My money says the problem with the eBay drum is there is corrosion between the iron liner and the alloy outer.
You can't see it but it acts as an insulator so the heat from the iron liner cannot transfer as quickly into the alloy. The drums effectively go slightly oval as the heat up with normal use. Fine for the first mile or so then get progressively worse. It will judder and grab as you describe.
If you remove the offending drum you will probably see a darker shadow on the liner. That's the problem zone under which the corrosion lies. Relining it is your only option.

I spent a FORTUNE on my 8 lugs. They were well worn when I bought them, I paid a huge bill to air freight them to Roger Rheil to reline them. And another huge bill to return them.He told me a bearing had spun in one drum and he sold me a replacement. They were OK for a while but I was never overly happy with them so when the front drums were repopped by???? (Can't recall his name right now), I bought a set. First up with the repop ones were there were no lugs installed. I had to get them pressed out of my old drums and into the repops. Then the brake guy I use and respect, told me that one new drum was out of round. He had to machine it out about 100thou to be round. And machine the other good drum to match. So machined out to their maximum wear limit and they were brand new.
About 2 years ago one of my rear drums went out of round for who knows what reason??? I just had had enough of them, put original drums and rims on the car, bought a set of NOS spoke type hub caps and have never been happier. Smooth braking every time.

I'll probably look into putting the 8 lugs back on the car one day after I sort out my bad rear drums but for the present, no 8 lugs works for me

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Last edited by Heybuck; 08-30-2021 at 08:32 PM.
  #15  
Old 08-31-2021, 10:12 AM
larrygroskopf larrygroskopf is offline
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My name is Larry from Z&L Machining. We have been relining the 8 lug drums after Roger Reel passed. We advertise in Smoke signals. We have solved numerous issues with John Piotrowski repopulate drums and also the original factory ones . I have read all the posts, some valid input. The most likely one is the area between the cast iron liner and aluminum drum, from years of moisture,Midwest weather etc. the liner is separated nothing holding them in. The the repops from John have different issues. If you want given me a call 815-735-4002. Sure we can help out. I no longer have the website showing in my add.

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Old 08-31-2021, 03:02 PM
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I thought the iron liner had a series of holes in it and was pressed in while the aluminum side of the drum was still warm. The iron liner was then heated just enough to melt some of the aluminum and have it fall into the holes. Once cool the liner was held in place buy the aluminum that filled the liner holes... Rodger was working on some kind of Epoxy that worked better. Rodger was having issues with the machine shop that was doing the relining. When he first started relining drums they worked perfectly for many years, the Epoxy was a success..

Best place to get 8 lugs is from Frank, trouble is which Frank is going to answer the phone..lol.. He has a big stash of 8 lug drums that lived out in the dry desert all there lives, no corrosion..

Rodger was also a wiz on the Super Hydra matic 315 transmission. He gave me the circuits to change springs in so my Super Hydra-matic would hold second and third till 5800 rpm.. I had this transmission behind a 462 and wow what a perfect street set up. Trouble was the motor had a 041 cam. There was good reason why John De Loran hated that cam.. lol..

Larry, its good to see you on here. I remember you from a long time ago when Smoke Signals was just starting. Flakey editior was putting out an excellent monthly magazine.. I miss those days. I always wanted to put a Super Hydro behind a 71 or 72 455 068 cam in a 69 or 70 Grand Prix..

I am so glad your picking up the 8 lug ball... They are so beautiful!. Im afraid I skinned too many knuckles over the years on them...


Last edited by 389; 08-31-2021 at 03:20 PM.
  #17  
Old 09-09-2021, 02:21 AM
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...trouble is which Frank is going to answer the phone..lol...
That's funny and so true.

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Old 09-09-2021, 12:04 PM
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The brake shoes are adjusted too tight. The 1962 shop manual says on page 5-2 the brakes should be adjusted to hear the swish, then back off 12 clicks. If you don't do that you're over heating the liner & it will warp causing jumpy brakes. I tested my '62 8 lug drums after doing that & they had 105-108 degrees on each drum with no brake problems for the last 20+ years.

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Old 09-13-2021, 08:23 PM
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Thanks everyone. I had some health issues that have gotten in the way, with diabetes then a clot from a bad fall and then Vertigo, which makes me feel even more like **** when it's hot out in the garage. Of course, it's Columbus, Ohio so no one knows **** unless it's rice or some other import.

The front relined hubs I bought off of ebay were relined by J & G and unused since until I bought them. I thought it was Larry who did the reline, but had gotten the company name mixed up between the J & G and Z & L. I bought rears from Larry years ago and they been trouble free since.

Remember, that 63s have auto adjusters. I've let them do their thing and they are more even side to side with lower overall temps and less thumping now. Once it cools down a little more, I'll get back out there in the garage and get back on this. I just got to be able to stand up without falling over.

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Old 11-09-2021, 09:53 PM
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Try having them trued buy a machinist, keep the wheel on them while you have them cut, make sure you torque them down to 75 Ftlbs and mark them...

Once they pound or shake there done.. Sorry...

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