[67Fbird]

so how much could he have left on the table? Stock heads.....what at best maybe 430 hp?

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

That's the part the kills me. I don't have a problem with the build, it's pretty much what I'd expect from a stock built 455 with such a small camshaft. But when you're paying for a dyno session I'd expect to have some data, like AFR, BSFC, a graph or curve of the power produced, and for damn sure what was the total timing where it made best power

He might think it's 2 degrees when he bumps the distributor around but I just about guarantee it's not. You just simply need to put a light on it and verify. Not doing so is just being lazy. I don't mean to sound harsh but common', really?

I can see how that conversation would go. Customer shows up, they talk numbers. Nick " It made best power when I retarded the timing" Owner "so where did it end up?" Nick "I don't know, never checked it" LOL

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt though, maybe when the owner shows up they'll make another pull for the owner, maybe then they'll actually check the total timing and see where it's at.

Not everybody who dynos an engine show the same things on their dyno printouts. If you look at the attachment to my post #8 you will see the BFSC numbers from what I believe is the highest HP run. I don't know what you got from BES with your fathers engine. I have a dyno sheet that someone shared with me from BES that has HP, Trq, Fuel Sum lbs/hr and BSFC the other columns have headings with zero for each RPM.

Stan

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Not everybody who dynos an engine show the same things on their dyno printouts. If you look at the attachment to my post #8 you will see the BFSC numbers from what I believe is the highest HP run. I don't know what you got from BES with your fathers engine. I have a dyno sheet that someone shared with me from BES that has HP, Trq, Fuel Sum lbs/hr and BSFC the other columns have headings with zero for each RPM.

Stan

The biggest thing I want to see on a dyno print out besides the HP and TQ numbers is the BSFC and LBS per HR of fuel. From there you can figure actual HP and do some math to get to the correction factor used and basically come to the conclusion if it's an honest number or if it's fudged.

Many sheets I've seen are blank in these columns, in which case I don't take the HP numbers as actual.

My gripe though about the video in question is where the timing is set. Those numbers are never on the dyno sheet unless the operator types it into the notes, but in this case we can plainly see that Nick is guessing at it, just moving the distributor around without checking.

[Jay S]

IRC, the kid in the dyno room was the one changing the timing. I have seen many of Nick’s videos, I am sure they were keeping track of timing adjustments, and timing numbers. It just wasn’t mentioned in the video. The camera generally follows Nick around in his video’s, not his help.

[mchell]

I personally enjoyed the video….. real people doing relatively normal stuff in the dyno room. Not looking to tout numbers or his ego.

He didn’t make 500hp out of the iron headed pontiac engine?…..OMG, something is terribly wrong…..lol

[tom s]

Neither did I!Tom

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by Jay S

IRC, the kid in the dyno room was the one changing the timing. I have seen many of Nick’s videos, I am sure they were keeping track of timing adjustments, and timing numbers. It just wasn’t mentioned in the video. The camera generally follows Nick around in his video’s, not his help.

That's what I assume, too. I have to imagine he told his assistant what number they were targeting as he'd move the distributor while the assistant watched the timing gun (and showed it to Nick to confirm).

[Jay S]

Not to long ago Nick’s garage had a bone stock rebuilt 70 455 Stage 1 Buick go through the shop and only made 350 ish HP with some very nice headers. The pistons that he wanted to use were not available (like lots of things right now) and he had to use a dished piston instead of a flat top. He took a compression check and it was only pumping 150 psi. I had noticed the shot on the dyno when the q jet was WOT everything was totally open. Much different than the q jet in this Pontiac video. He worked and worked and couldn’t find anymore power.

Shorty later, another video came out with dyno pulls on the same engine. All he did was mill the heads .035” and went to thinner cometic gasket’s .027”. It was ran on the dyno again, and peak HP went up to 400 HP. Impressive gain with minor changes, and only gained 20 more lbs pumping pressure, now pumping 170 psi.

Never know, this Pontiac 455 engine may not be done at his shop. If the owner has higher expectations, it may show up on another show with some different mods. I think it did pretty well though. More left for sure, but it will be night and day better than the owners original 455 engine in there 76 T/A.

We build a LOT of mopars, many Pontiacs, and lots and lots of other makes just like him, I like his show a lot. I admit though, the shows can get slow, fast forward can be handy. Lol

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I admit though, the shows can get slow, fast forward can be handy. Lol

Yep, 100% agree. The episodes often drag on for much longer than is needed to get whatever point across they are trying to make.

[Scott Roberts]

Maybe I'm being over optimistic but I believe a 455 can make much more power than that on pump gas and still be very manageable...
Seems very weak and over thought in that video.. one would almost have to screw up not to make 450hp on a very mild 455 with current technology
. It was painful to watch..
I wouldn't let him near an engine unless I wanted to waste money..

[Cliff R]

I agree. I'll attach a dyno sheet and cam card for a very "basic" 455 Super Duty I did here some years back. Due to the relatively "low" compression ratio I was very conservative with the cam choice and left quite a bit of power on the table. I wanted good idle quality and strong low and mid-range power. The engine was previously "built" by a pretty famous Pontiac engine builder and guru and the owner absolutely HATED it. Rough idle, pinged on pump gas, and he seized it up shortly after purchasing it. Before the engine locked up he had everyone available to him attempt to tune it and he still hated it.

When it showed up here 3 cylinders were badly scored and the rings and pistons damaged. We had to sleeve the block. The Super Duty connecting rods were junk from over prepping them with a grinder, sanding roll and the small end bushings were too loose on the pins. I tossed them aside for lighter rods vs spending a bunch of money on the well used and abused SD rods.

It also got Icon pistons and zero decked the block. Removed the "battleship" valve springs from the heads for "normal" spring loads and replaced the huge solid roller cam with the smaller one shown below.

The engine idled dead smooth on the dyno making 16" vacuum at 750rpm's, not even a hint of "lope" clear down to 600rpm's. I knew right then and there that I missed the cam choice a bit. Even so the engine made good power but the small cam didn't effective use the head flow available from the excellent Super Duty heads and it was all done just past 5000rpms.

I could have went to a 236 @ .050" cam with around 290 seat timing, moved it out on a 114 LSA and made over 500hp and still enjoyed a relatively smooth idle and good street manners. In any case you learn by doing these things not by Googling the efforts of others. When you get into new territory sometimes you just have to take the plunge and see how things work out.........

[scott70]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Not to long ago Nick’s garage had a bone stock rebuilt 70 455 Stage 1 Buick go through the shop and only made 350 ish HP with some very nice headers. The pistons that he wanted to use were not available (like lots of things right now) and he had to use a dished piston instead of a flat top. He took a compression check and it was only pumping 150 psi. I had noticed the shot on the dyno when the q jet was WOT everything was totally open. Much different than the q jet in this Pontiac video. He worked and worked and couldn’t find anymore power.

Shorty later, another video came out with dyno pulls on the same engine. All he did was mill the heads .035” and went to thinner cometic gasket’s .027”. It was ran on the dyno again, and peak HP went up to 400 HP. Impressive gain with minor changes, and only gained 20 more lbs pumping pressure, now pumping 170 psi.

Never know, this Pontiac 455 engine may not be done at his shop. If the owner has higher expectations, it may show up on another show with some different mods. I think it did pretty well though. More left for sure, but it will be night and day better than the owners original 455 engine in there 76 T/A.

We build a LOT of mopars, many Pontiacs, and lots and lots of other makes just like him, I like his show a lot. I admit though, the shows can get slow, fast forward can be handy. Lol

I did reply to nick on youtube and told him my opinion was that carb was not too small and should support alot more HP than what he is seeing. Told him my 70' 750 cfm quadrajet supported close to 500 hp on my 455 thats more stock than high performance . Told him the shops 850 holley dyno carb made 4hp less than my qjet. He said the customer was coming back the next day with a bigger carb since the motor was still on the dyno. I do enjoy watching most of his videos.

[Stan Weiss]

Do you know what happened with the larger carb?

I hope this thread is finally done with all of the coulda, shoulda, woulda stuff.

Stan

[scott70]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Do you know what happened with the larger carb?

I hope this thread is finally done with all of the coulda, shoulda, woulda stuff.

Stan

As of yesterday he said customer hasnt brought in the bigger carb yet. Ive seen worse threads here,,,,better than no posts at all at this point.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Lunati 702 Camshaft Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 262/268, Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 219/227, Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh).468/.489 ; LSA/ICL: 112/108

The 1970 455 YH motor was factory rated at 360HP (over-rated by about 30HP by my estimation) with 10.0 compression small valve 1.96/1.66 #15 heads and the 067 camshaft. The 067 cam has advertised duration of 273/289 (Int/Exh), Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh) 407/.407, ICL 112/113.

The 1970 455 YC (HO) motor was rated at 370 HP with 10.25 compression and large valve 2.11/1.77 #64 heads and the 068 camshaft with advertised duration of 288/302 (Int/Exh), Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh) 407/.407, ICL 113/119.

The dyno'd engine had #96 HO Heads with around a half point less compression than stock, large valves like the HO motor, but a cam that with less duration, more lift and tighter exhaust side centerline favoring low end torque than the 360HP motor. The benefits of the larger valves was negated by the reduced (from stock) camshaft duration.

How could anyone be surprised that the HP and Torque results are so close to stock?

[Formulajones]

I don't think anyone was surprised at the outcome. When I saw stock D-ports and the small cam chosen, I guessed 375hp and 480 tq before they even fired it up. I was about spot on with HP and it bettered the tq I guessed by 25 or so.
It's not a bad engine for a stocker.

Hey Stan.........They could have verified the timing with a light though

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

Lunati 702 Camshaft Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 262/268, Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 219/227, Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh).468/.489 ; LSA/ICL: 112/108

The 1970 455 YH motor was factory rated at 360HP (over-rated by about 30HP by my estimation) with 10.0 compression small valve 1.96/1.66 #15 heads and the 067 camshaft. The 067 cam has advertised duration of 273/289 (Int/Exh), Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh) 407/.407, ICL 112/113.

The 1970 455 YC (HO) motor was rated at 370 HP with 10.25 compression and large valve 2.11/1.77 #64 heads and the 068 camshaft with advertised duration of 288/302 (Int/Exh), Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh) 407/.407, ICL 113/119.

The dyno'd engine had #96 HO Heads with around a half point less compression than stock, large valves like the HO motor, but a cam that with less duration, more lift and tighter exhaust side centerline favoring low end torque than the 360HP motor. The benefits of the larger valves was negated by the reduced (from stock) camshaft duration.

How could anyone be surprised that the HP and Torque results are so close to stock?

While the seat-to-seat duration of the 702 is less. The 0.050" duration is one degree more on the intake and exhaust than the 068

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I don't think anyone was surprised at the outcome. When I saw stock D-ports and the small cam chosen, I guessed 375hp and 480 tq before they even fired it up. I was about spot on with HP and it bettered the tq I guessed by 25 or so.
It's not a bad engine for a stocker.

Hey Stan.........They could have verified the timing with a light though

How do you know that they don't?

Stan

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

How do you know that they don't?

Stan

Well if you watched the video, he's turning the distributor between pulls and just going right back in the control room to make a pull. He did that at least 2 or maybe 3 times without even checking it with the light. In fact he just says, we'll retard it a couple degrees. He moves the distributor and that's it, with no idea if that was a couple degrees or even where it is at all. The only time they had the light on it was on the first fire up.

And....in my other posts I did mention that I gave Nick the benefit of the doubt and that maybe he might have made a final timing check for the owner after he got there to verify where the timing is, because it is kind of important ya know. But for the purposes of the video he didn't do any of that, which makes the effort kind of pointless as far as his viewers are concerned.

Whether he did after the video we don't know, but for sure it wasn't done during filming and during the video there was no mention at all where the timing ended up on the best pull.

[Jay S]

I haven’t been able to see what your talking about Larry? I watched it again to see it I missed something and it appeared while Nick was going back to the control room, the younger fella was standing in front of the engine with a timing light checking it, it is just not mentioned. Young guy was carrying the timing light for most of the episode. Looked like they were pretty good at changing the timing to me. I could miss it though, I do like to use fast forward. Lol

I would let them do to pulls on my engines anytime. Each to his own though.

Hope the owner got the carb to Nick before he has to pull it off the pump. If he didn’t get it done before today that ship probably sailed. I think dyno day for videos is often Saturday up there. I still think they could hit 400 HP if he worked at it a little more. Nick generally waits for the owner to be the for the last dyno pulls. I think that little voodoo cam is more cam than most give it credit for, it likely has a fair amount of power more left if they work at it more.

The actual seat timing of the 702 at .006 is 267 int, 276 exh, which is more than Lunati’s advertise numbers, plus it has a little more top end power from the way it is ground, it holds the valves open for another 4-5* than the specs indicates because of the cams has longer duration on the closing side than the opening side. It is really only a few degrees shorter on the intake closing than a 068. The 068 is a little bigger yet the way it’s lobes are spread out, but the 068 at .006” tappet is only in the lower 270s @.006”, I don’t know extactly the .006” numbers for the small Pontiac cams, but the much higher duration rating for the ,066, 067, and 068 come from specs at lower lifts.

FWIW, a 068 with 1.65 rockers would likely provide very similar performance to this small voodoo cam. That is a common combo. The 214,224 white box cams with bigger rockers will come close too. I have a very similar power output to this 455 in one of my cars. I have had 1.70s 60 e/t’s ft in a 4000 lb car with that combo. For sure the small cam combos leave a considerable amount of Hp from being tapped into, but they can also surprise you how well they run. I have done quite a few 455 Pontiacs almost set up similar to the dyno engine also, the cam being the main difference. Most common set up for me in 455s have actually been with the 96 heads, stock q jet and and RA manifolds, upper 9s compression. I still run one, we have probably built 8 of them. Even with some well thought out HFT and bigger sft and roller cams, using pump gas they kind of hit a wall at 450 hp with stock d ports and the RA manifolds.