[Tom Hand]

Maurice,
I would like to provide the answers to some of the questions you poised above and also clarify some of the (mis)information provided in an earlier post on this X-crossover string.

To get answers to your questions, I called Rhino muffler’s technical information line and spoke to a knowledgeable gentlemen, Jay. Unfortunately, Jay was not immediately aware of any recent Hot Rod Magazine article concerning compariosns of a X-crossovers on a vehicle using their mufflers. After talking with him a few minutes, he did recall an installation done over a year ago on a 1970 Mercury Montego. Jay asked that we let him know what issue it was in so he could try to find it.

I then called The Muffler Man in Placentia, California to ask if they had information they could share with me about recent X-crossover comparison tests. I spoke to Tom, and like Rhino’s technical representative, he was unaware of any recent articles. However, he did recall the Mercury Montego article and offered to send us copies of the magazine article after he retrieved it from his files.

I spoke to Tom about the X-crossover he sells and he said that when the hole sizes in the junction of their products are similar to other manufacturer's crossovers, he would expect ALL of them to act similar. Like our past experience, Tom found that too small of a transfer hole between sides reduces the power gain and too large of a hole increases the sound level. We also compared previous test data and I told him we generally saw increases of between about 6 and 15 horsepower over H-crossover systems and he said they usually expect to see from about 5 to 12 HP increases. Tom also said that they do work on 600 to 750 HP California drag race cars and said he uses the X-style crossover to reduce the sound level and pick up the power.

After acquiring the article, I found that the power gains mentioned in the post you questioned were in reference to a complete replacement of the original single exhaust system that used log manifolds and a single 2 ¼" pipe muffler system. I’d like to share several quotes from the Hot Rod article: "Our mellow Merc still possessed the original exhaust system: 30 years in a Bay area garage had preserved it like a piece of beef jerky! While this meant factory levels of quiet in the cabin, it also meant severe exhaust-flow inefficiency- 1 5/8" manifold dumping into a single pinky-slim pipe". "We used equal length , long tube Hedman headers for our 150,000 mile 351C (1 5/8" primaries, 3" collector) and sent them to HPC in Utah, to get ceramic-coated inside and out." Hot Rod also used one of the Muffler Man’s X-crossover and Rhino mufflers. The pipe diameter was increased from the original 2.25" (single) system to dual 2.5" exhaust pipes and tail pipes. The power thus gained from this complete exhaust system change was "22 HP and 11 ft-lb of torque at the wheels". Here is another direct quote from the Hot Rod article which was printed directly under a photo of the Muffler Man X crossover: "Instead of a typical H pipe, we opted for one of the The Muffler Man’s X-style aluminized crossover pipes which was built in-house. The gentle bends of the X pipe help scavenging (no sharp corners to induce turbulence as in a traditional H-pipe system...), and the larger chamber at the center of the X deals more efficiently with exhaust pulses, which helps both scavenging and eliminating resonance. It also makes for a rich, rumbly exhaust note".

It should be noted that all X systems have a larger chamber at the junction due to the design.

Additioanlly, please note that Jim Hand commented on the expected power gain of similar X crossovers in his recent post on this subject, "In summary, the test results from Hot Rod tests clearly demonstrate that the Dr Gas X crossover, AND OTHER SIMILAR X SYSTEMS, do indeed meet the customer’s expectations of more power and therefore more performance."

So Maurice, to answer your questions, it was April 1999 Hot Rod, page 100, the "controlled test" article was about a 351C Mercury Montego with single exhaust that was changed to duals with headers, the power increase noted was gained by the complete exhaust installation, not just a specific crossover comparison, and the total power they found was a peak of 22 Hp and 11 ft-lb of torque.

I would expect the author that posted information regarding this test to answer your remaining questions. Please feel free to email me at thand@sprintmail.com if you would like additional information.
Tom Hand

[Gach]

Tom, I want to thank you for going through all that trouble in trying to answer a question that was ask of me. You even took the time to fine the article "amazing". Nice having all that free time on your hands, I'll bet you spent some money on the phone not only with Hot Rod but with other exhaust
companies. I felt by posting those phone numbers I made it allot easier for you...LOL... hope I save you some money. Isn't it great to know there's other products out there, as Steve C. has also point out, ( Supreme Automotive in Brooklyn, NY at 718-232-4646 ) I'm really disappointed you didn't take the time to research the system Steve C, mention, but felt it important only to research Muffler Mans X crossover system.

Perhaps, I need to clarify my reason for posting my response to Hot Rods test of another brand of x crossover system. The purpose was to show that they do indeed produce more hp over stock type exhaust systems. I'm sure that anyone who has tired anyone of these systems will agree, their
perfectly happy with the performance of their system. I also agree that they do produce more hp over stock type, as well as H type systems, that has never been my argument. My other reason was to show that Hot Hot has also done articles on other x crossover systems, but what you won't see in any of those articles is the claim, that they are capable of producing more hp then running with open headers. That is the problem I had with one brand of x crossover, after a great amount of money, phone time, shipping cost, and count less hours of changing, pips, hangers, welding, jetting, timing, and track testing, under controlled conditions, it never produce any more power then open headers. I also want to state most are not looking for the same results, I was looking for, all I every did was state my experience I had with one particular brand.

Another point I want to make is this. how many times have we seen test or article's done by Hot Rod and other magazines, that are really in question, we all know by now that they tend to hype things a bit, or even have the wrong information, provided by the person selling his product or engine building
experience. My response just backs up the original Hot Rod test, and basically says that these systems are all about the same, sure out of the three systems, that were posted, I'm sure there's one that mite work better on different combinations, not any two cars are the same.

One thing that really troubles me is some of your statements you made, ooh I'm sure it was because things have been read into my post on " test results" that were taken completely out of contexts, it's under stand able if your a dealer for one particular product to try and defend what you believe to be
a good product, but I never made these statements ( recent Crossover comparison tests.) I never said it was a comparison test done to compare other crossovers systems, and I'm really disappointed that you Tom of all people would try and read into my post things that just aren't there.

As far as I'm concern this is my last response to this topic, it's gotten way beyond being petty, let people take all this information, and judge for themselves. I will not answer questions from anyone who has taken my response out of context, nor will I respond to anyone who is deliberately trying to invoke a pissing contest to help set up another response, for the sole perhaps of trying to create an argument. that in the end results is totally meaning less.

I want to thank Jim, and Tom Hand for taking time out of their busy schedule, and providing us with all this imformantion. Great job guys.

[Maurice Hood]

Tom, thanks for posting the information regarding the X-pipe test. That will certainly clarify things for me when I'm ready for my exhaust system. I suspected that there was no miracle system out there anywhere. That when compared on an equal playing field they were all about the same!!!
It is refreshing to see straight forward test results posted without the extra insinuations and attempts to mislead. It is unfortunate that we have to wade through claims and allegations to get to the facts.I didn't inquire about the Supreme Automotive system as there were no unusually high HP gains claimed. If you will notice the claims for the MM-system and against the Gas-X system you can understand my confusion. Way back on post 10 it was stated that Gas-X supposedly claimed to make a car "run as fast as open headers" then on post 17 the claim changed to " make more HP than open headers". On post 32 it was stated also that " there is no doubt in my mind that it (MM-X pipe) produces more HP than other brand X crossovers". Well, I am just appreciative Tom that the record was set straight!! Thanks again. .... Maurice

[This message has been edited by Maurice Hood (edited 09-02-2000).]

[Jim Hand]

To the board: there are several statements above about Jim and Tom Hand’s role in our exhaust system testing program that requires some clarification. At the time several of these comments were made, both Tom I were serving as Moderators by request of PY. As Moderators, we were asked to not respond to some of the material posted in order to maintain a good image for PY. We agreed.

However, with the change to no moderators, we have been assured by PY that we now have the same posting privileges as ALL OTHERS on this board, so I wish to comment on several selected statements that appear above in this thread:

"Tom, I know your a big seller of their systems,"

"Tom, when ever some one endorses a product, or offers a sponsorship of that product, in
which that person has to perches the product. in order to offer a sponsorship, some were
along the lines there has to be some personal gains, weather it's a free exhaust system, or money paid for writing an article."

"I'm sure you've had many rewards from your testing for companies"

"it's under stand able if your a dealer for one particular product to try and defend
what you believe to be a good product"

1. We are not nor have we ever been "dealers" for any product, exhaust or otherwise. We do have access to lower costs from several companies for test purposes, but any material we have "bought" has been forwarded to the eventual user at our cost or even less!

2. If the writer of the above was inferring that we have gained monetarily from our test program, that is pure Bull Manure. We have spent far more in wear and tear on the test vehicle, fuel costs, shipping, and telephone costs then we have ever been paid for any aspect of the test program.

3. If the writer of the above was inferring that we have gained valuable knowledge and experience from our extensive testing, that is dead accurate. We now know how most of the available products work and are able to select the best parts for our own use. Additionally, we are able to help others with their selections.

4. If the writer of the above was inferring that we have made a lot of good contacts in the exhaust industry, have access to the latest product information, and are able to make technical presentations to others with the support and knowledge we now have, that is also dead accurate.

We made a technical presentation September 10 to the Regional Meet of the POCI in the Kansas City area, and were able to display and explain a variety of exhaust products we have gathered over the years, as well as demonstrate with a real car and a real exhaust system how certain of the products sound. As a result of review of some of the recent misleading posts on this thread, we ran across a relatively new muffler, and the Mfg asked us to run them on our test vehicle to compare against presently available quality mufflers. The companies that we have worked with over the years know that we are capable of presenting accurate and verifiable test data with no bias towards any product, and they will provide new products for testing. Depending on the test results, the mufflers will then be forwarded to others for use or testing, may be kept for display for future tech presentations, or may be given away as door prizes at Pontiac events. As any exhaust product becomes useless for resale after it has been run, seldom do the Mfgs want us to return the test material although we always offer to do so.

In summary, the testing we have done and that has been presented in HPP, the Pontiac Enthusiast, and Popular Hot Rodding pretty much speaks for itself, so if any have any questions about our approach, abilities, or bias, please take a look at any or all of those technical presentations. Jim Hand

[Ron]

Thanks for pointing out the differences between the two magazine articles. One would expect at least a 22 HP gain going from a restrictive single exhaust to a performance level dual exhaust system. The tireless work and painstaking documentation will pay off for the Pontiac enthuisiast who wants a performance exhaust system.

Thanks for the help, unbiased technical information and comparisons.

Ron

[Maurice Hood]

Jim, many thanks to both you and Tom for your hard work and dedication. I'll be talking to you soon about that new exhaust system. Thanks..... Maurice

[Half-Inch Stud]

Jim & Tom,
Could you please summarize the complete, present Exhaust system on the wagon that works?
[I haven't subscribed to a glitter mag since 91, so this thread is it]
Include status of head cross-over blockage.
manifold/header type, headpipe details, X position, muffler model, length, tailpipe dia.
Thank you,
Half-Inch Stud

[BobC]

To Jim and Tom Hand,
Thanks for the Performance Seminar at the Show Me Region POCI Show on Sept. 9&10. It was great to see the wagon run the numbers at KCIR on Sat. and then get the tech info about the hardware/setup Sunday on the show field.

[Jim Hand]

As this thread has gotten long and time consuming to access, have started a new thread called "Exhaust Systems" and have described the complete system we run. Jim Hand