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#41
03-09-2009, 12:38 PM
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I can't wait to see the results of Cliff's testing. The P4B casting looks like it has a good design but looks can be deceiving. Cliff will get the rights of it.
Stewart
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1976 TA, nose converted to 1970 style, 406, ported #13 Heads, '70 iron intake without crossovers, Q-Jet - Cliff style, RARE OS manifolds, Pypes duals w/crossflow, UD 230/238 custom HR 4/7 swap cam with solid roller lifters  , Hydro-Boost 4-wheel discs, 4 Speed, 3.23 posi.“Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.” - Winston Churchill |
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#42
03-09-2009, 01:03 PM
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The problem with intake comparisons is that they all act differently with each engine combination.
As per Cliffs car and Jim Hands wagon, both may respond different as they are different weights,builds etc. Wont engine cam, head flow, carb, exhaust, transmission, stall, gears, tires, weight, etc all play into what intake works the best? So if Cliff bolts this intake up and it performs better than his modified stock intake, what does it show the rest of us. It will show his car likes it better, but our cars it may not. The only way to find out which intake is best for your combo would be to do the same comparison. Thats why there are so many different people with different combos running so good. Some will run the same times with big torque engines with low RPMs as small high RPM engines but I guarantee the engines will perform differently if they swapped intakes etc. I guess my point is, dont just take someone elses results like they are written in stone. |
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#43
03-09-2009, 02:10 PM
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You left changing shift points, weather conditions, tidal surges and what phase the moon is in off your list!
Most folks don't have a car that will run consistant enough from run to run to even do an accurate back to back test of any part. It's hard enough for me to do it, as the number of track runs you are going to get in a single outing is often quite limited. In any case, you might has well go into every single thread running on this website, including Jim Wangler's record setting runs, and tell EVERYONE that the true potential of your vehicle is a based on so many different possible combinations of parts, that there it is not possible or even practical to make comparisons between them. I guess I should start putting a disclaimer after my signature telling everyone that the combination we use is probably not going to give anyone the same results anyplace!?! Now, reality check. We test parts, lots and lots of them to find out the true potential of those parts. You ALWAYS learn something from every test, even if you don't run quicker than the part or parts just removed. The information is provided to the readers to show what the potential of a part or combinations of parts can be, nothing more, nothing less. With this in mind (and one should do this for all posts), read the information, evaluate it, make an informative decision whether to use it or not, but FULLY do not expect to run the exact same times as guy who just tested that particular part.......Cliff
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#44
03-09-2009, 02:18 PM
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Just letting some of the people know that you cant compare apples to oranges. I'm glad there are people out there like you and Jim doing the blanket researches out there. I cannot tell you how many people want the performance I have and ask about my combo and then they run a different gear ratio or a different carb or different cam etc and then email me back saying that the combo isn't performing like mine. Ugh!!!!
Anyway, I'm following this post as I follow most everyones comparison. Thanks again Cliff and all the others that spend the time to do this type of testing. I didnt want to sound like I was critiquing your efforts or Jims or..... Are you going to notch the divider on the P4B? The way the stock and the P4B look after the mods you did, I'm really curious to see the difference as the floor is smooth on one and ridged on the other. Let the test begin!!! Good luck to you. Last edited by sixt8bird; 03-09-2009 at 02:27 PM. |
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#45
03-09-2009, 02:52 PM
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Those are both very good points from both of you!!! I know last year my combo was very consistent usually within .01-.02.So I could test like cliff and know what worked and what didnt.!!hence How I found out my car like cliffs didnt like a spacer on the stock intake was .06 faster with just a 1/4 gasket!! .. This year could be a whole new ball game!! I am guessing it will 60 ft a tad better cause of more power,but not enough convertor to really 60ft!,but after that i am betting it will run faster at every point!...
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Darby 74 Grandville 2Dr 455 c.i 4550# 2011 1.60 60 ft,7.33@94.55-11.502@117.74  2017, 74 firebird -3600 lbs (all bests) 1.33 60 ft, 6.314@108.39 9.950@134.32 M/T 275/60 ET SS Drag Radial 2023,(Pontiac 505) 1.27 60 ft, 5.97@112.86, 9.48@139.31.... 275/60 Radial Pro's Last edited by grandville455; 03-09-2009 at 03:21 PM. |
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#46
03-10-2009, 06:25 AM
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"Are you going to notch the divider on the P4B? The way the stock and the P4B look after the mods you did, I'm really curious to see the difference as the floor is smooth on one and ridged on the other. Let the test begin!!! Good luck to you."
Thanks. I'm going to do the first testing without notching the divider, using a .230" thick fully open gasket, so both sides can "see" each other effectively enough, at least for initial testing. Testing parts is not easy, and usually takes 2 if not 3 outings to see the full potential of the parts being tested. We will load up and drive about an hour 20 minutes to the track, unload the car, and drive it around till fully warmed up. The first run, is almost always off slightly from the next as it just gets the "cobwebs" cleaned out, and the transmisson and differential completely warmed up. I will see .01-.02 seconds improvement from the second run about 95 percent of the time and change nothing. So I will make at least 2 more runs, and look at all three slips. They will in most cases be withing apprx .02-.03 seconds of each other. IF this is the case, we will install the part to be tested, then make another run. Time permitting, 2-3 more runs, then average all the numbers. More times than not, 2 things will happen. We woln't get in 2-3 more runs, and the temperatures will drop off enough to improve the runs anyhow. This mandates another outing, starting out with the car in the last configuration we raced it in (we also have to duplicate fuel level used in the last round of testing), or the new part in place, then repeating the procedure above. We will finish up with the original part in place, and have about 5-6 runs from each part to average. Keep in mind, you have to pull all of this off, and not "toss" any runs because someone left a bunch of oil or water on the starting line causing the tires to slip and mess up the entire run. We also have to factor in the DA between the two (or three) outings, and always try to run in similiar weather conditions. The other test method used is just to run a part for a considerable period of time and "average" all the numbers. Although not a same day "back to back" test, you will see over several dozens runs with each part in place in various weather conditions which part is going to provide the best ET/MPH. My goal for the P4B intake is two fold. I do NOT like the RPM intake we are currently running, as it requires a 1" shorter Shaker assembly which doesn't allow the use of the factory style air filter and lid. It also doesn't "fit" well, putting uneeded force up against the hood as it's just too tall for the stock type components. I want to go back to all of the original Shaker parts, and run a stock air filter to keep dust/dirt out of our engine. I also have never seen or heard of any testing with the P4B intake, at least in the q-jet version, so it's new ground. I would just bolt on the iron intake in place of the RPM, however, the runners in the new heads are WAY taller than the stock gaskets, so I'd have to open up the port entrances. I want to keep the iron intake in it's "stock" gasket size, just in case I ever decide to make an aluminum version of it. Concerning the current state of the economy, it's becoming even less likely this will ever happen. I will say that I have been approached once already about making an intake, but after seeing Ace getting "rolled under the bus" on a similiar deal, a "joint" venture is highly unlikely, I've had enough telephone poles shoved up my rear with business dealings in the past few years, and I'm MUCH wiser about this sort of thing these days!......Cliff
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#47
03-10-2009, 08:35 AM
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Hole in Boss by Carb Pad ?
Cliff,
Is the hole in the boss by the carb pad on the crossover for a choke? I noticed that some have them, some don't and some are divorced. If it is, how would you adapt a Q-Jet to it? |
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#48
03-10-2009, 09:10 AM
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Not sure? I suppose a divorced choke could be mounted to one of those intakes, with a custom length rod running up to the carb, etc......Cliff
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#49
03-11-2009, 12:19 PM
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Divorced Intake
This photo looks to be a divorced intake. The other looks to be a direct draw off the exhaust from the crossover if that even is what its for.
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#50
03-11-2009, 12:26 PM
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I always thought that pad was for the EGR valve. Must have thought wrong.
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#51
03-12-2009, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
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D.S.R.E. Your NW Pontiac Street/Strip Engine Builder, Specializing in Cylinder Head,Intake Manifold,and Exhaust Manifold Porting services and Building the Most Efficient stock rebuilds to Hi HP Pump Gas and Race Combinations for Pontiac,Buicks,Olds,FE Fords,385 Series and HP Gen 3 and 4 LS engines! 2006 silvy Z71 4X4,383 LS 600+hp NA Shared Toy-66 Lemans 470cid by me 537hp 580tq-manifolds, 570hp 590tq-2"headers,custom cam,rpm intake, mild e-heads, Looks stock ;-} |
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#52
03-24-2009, 12:38 PM
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I had the opportunity to flow test Tom Donovan's P4B-QJ intake manifold, and wanted to share the results. We know from the pictures of it in this thread, Tom’s manifold features a runner configuration that’s larger and wider than those of a stock cast-iron unit. It is essentially the same as Cliff's but its runners are completely unmodified.
Using a cast-iron Pontiac cylinder head that flows an average of 255-cfm at 28-inches, the P4B flowed an average of 95.65% of that across its 8 runners. That’s several percent better than an unmodified factory cast-iron or the Edelbrock Performer (all are around 88%). For reference, an unmodified Edelbrock RPM or Torker 2 will each flow around 93% at that same head flow value. So far the P4B looks to be a great sleeper manifold. Hopefully Cliff can follow up with some track testing to further substantiate this! |
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#53
03-24-2009, 01:59 PM
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Just found this thread. Seems my Race Section Dual-Plane thread is redundant since my "s2p2?" is...a P4B! My P4B is identical to Post #17 2nd Picture, and appears to be hogged for Spreadbore. Observation is that it does not seal the Q-JET in front on the Primaries, so I will need to mix-up the......JB-Weld.
Yea, in all me years, P4Bs were just above the Weiand manifolds. Yet, with the knowledge provided on Factory Iron PErformance, it seems the P4B has an attractive potential to equal-or-outdo the Factory Iron. I'm PLANNING to find-out how it will do against the Torker I, Tomahawk, OFFYL Dual Quad. Cliff can do the Factory Iron compare...and beyond. |
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#54
03-24-2009, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
I gonna give it a try on the 455 with #197 heads this summer.. Thanks Charles
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68 Firebird. IA2 block, 505 cu in, E-head, Solid roller 3650 weight. Reid TH400 4:11 gear. 29" slick. Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft. 76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend, 468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh. |
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#55
03-24-2009, 06:46 PM
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dammit charles where did u find that!
 ...lolHow does the square bore ones measure up to the qj version? there easier to find lol __________________
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Darby 74 Grandville 2Dr 455 c.i 4550# 2011 1.60 60 ft,7.33@94.55-11.502@117.74 2017, 74 firebird -3600 lbs (all bests) 1.33 60 ft, 6.314@108.39 9.950@134.32 M/T 275/60 ET SS Drag Radial 2023,(Pontiac 505) 1.27 60 ft, 5.97@112.86, 9.48@139.31.... 275/60 Radial Pro's Last edited by grandville455; 03-24-2009 at 06:54 PM. |
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#56
03-24-2009, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
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#57
03-24-2009, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Ya, it seems very hard to find the QJ version. I don't have it yet so, I post when I get it.. Charles
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68 Firebird. IA2 block, 505 cu in, E-head, Solid roller 3650 weight. Reid TH400 4:11 gear. 29" slick. Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft. 76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend, 468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh. |
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#58
03-25-2009, 07:12 AM
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It appears that Edelbrock made several improved configurations of this intake before splitting the difference and producing two completely different manifolds, the Performer and Performer RPM.
Here is the final configuration of ours, ready to install and test. It will be several weeks before we can get any track runs on it, but will back to back it against the RPM intake at some point......Cliff
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#59
03-25-2009, 07:16 AM
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Cliff will u be adding a spacer to the P4B?... The One I am looking at looks like the one in your first pic on page one!.Square bore ..
__________________
Darby 74 Grandville 2Dr 455 c.i 4550# 2011 1.60 60 ft,7.33@94.55-11.502@117.74 2017, 74 firebird -3600 lbs (all bests) 1.33 60 ft, 6.314@108.39 9.950@134.32 M/T 275/60 ET SS Drag Radial 2023,(Pontiac 505) 1.27 60 ft, 5.97@112.86, 9.48@139.31.... 275/60 Radial Pro's |
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#60
03-25-2009, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
 Charles
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68 Firebird. IA2 block, 505 cu in, E-head, Solid roller 3650 weight. Reid TH400 4:11 gear. 29" slick. Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft. 76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend, 468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh. |
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