[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by dataway

I just edited my original photo in a paint program and re-saved it.

Although I do have AutoCad, Inventor, Solidworks, 3ds-Max, Fusion 360 etc. that I use to design various projects both real and imaginary (like my six valve, single cylinder, wobble plate valve train engine )

HiJack ended.

Mikes reply:

Nice 3-D modeling, Auto-cad has many additive programs, one can add software to plus works well with the other software programs. I started using 12 and went to 13 in two years, (1996-7) while drafting, but we drew in 2-D while Drafting. I should be deep into modeling but learning Auto Mechanics 101 takes up all my time or I would be playing in Auto-cad for sure.

Have you made the parts move, like make an exploded pictorial expand and contract slowly?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

I have been watching videos about "how to prepare a Block at home", in order to remove the sharp edges that will keep the Block from cracking, in its upcoming life. I have viewed so many videos that I am speculating servicing the block at home. I can remove the freeze plugs to clean out the water passages.

I want to ask before I do this, has anyone used a sand blaster on the outside of the Block to both remove paint and surface material to start with? Do I dare use one on the inside of the block? Could I change to a different media, if light sand is too course/rough. I removed the rust off one of my trailers using the two-sand blasters in stock. The tool is a container with a strap to shoulder, using it with a wand that attaches to an air hose. What pressure should I use. Since the Block is completely empty, I would not pull the oil plugs until I am done, and I could fill anu remaining oil holes with some type of plug. I would blow out the Block when done, then wash it, then pull the oil plugs and blow them out afterwards. The oil passages never rust, when oil is in them, as is in my case.

[tom s]

Mike,have the machine shop prepare the block from cleaning to finish honing it.Save yourself a lot of head aches.There is plenty you will be able to screw up in final assembly!Tom

[Gach]

Originally Posted by tom s

Lou,custom is custom,no more to order 35 over than 60 over especially if your ordering a dish.Tom

Originally Posted by tom s

Mike,just have all cycs sonic check!Tom

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I have been watching videos about "how to prepare a Block at home", in order to remove the sharp edges that will keep the Block from cracking, in its upcoming life. I have viewed so many videos that I am speculating servicing the block at home. I can remove the freeze plugs to clean out the water passages.

I want to ask before I do this, has anyone used a sand blaster on the outside of the Block to both remove paint and surface material to start with? Do I dare use one on the inside of the block? Could I change to a different media, if light sand is too course/rough. I removed the rust off one of my trailers using the two-sand blasters in stock. The tool is a container with a strap to shoulder, using it with a wand that attaches to an air hose. What pressure should I use. Since the Block is completely empty, I would not pull the oil plugs until I am done, and I could fill anu remaining oil holes with some type of plug. I would blow out the Block when done, then wash it, then pull the oil plugs and blow them out afterwards. The oil passages never rust, when oil is in them, as is in my case.

So what are your plans ? Are you boring and putting in new pistons.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Gach

So what are your plans? Are you boring and putting in new pistons.

Mikes reply:

I am reading the book that I was told to buy, watching videos, gathering information, and this weekend I will be measuring all the areas that need to be measured, the correct way. Next week, I will post what I find and then I will be able to make better decisions. I can tell you this, the Crank must be sent out to be turned and sized for the Rod and Crank bearings. I will be micrometerIng the cyl. walls and Piston grooves to see what their story is. The Block is not bad to the eye, I don't see lines in the vertical direction in the cylinder walls, we do have a ridge. The Rods feel good to the Pin. Rings get replaced and Bearings get replaced, that is a given. I do have the confidence to perform all but the Block magnaflux and Crank turning. I have the tools to do everything for a home build. I built the Trans. How hard can the Engine be. Part of me says do what I can and source out what I can't do. The other side is saying give it to the shop and get a short Block back, done. Let me measure this weekend and I will make my decision next week.

This is speculation at this point, speaking out loud:

The Honing I can do at home means I must use the type of rings that work with this type of stone. I read that I should take off no more than .010" and if the low areas disappear and the ridge is tolerable then a Ring job is all I need, that is if the Pistons past the test. The Rods and Pin look good to the eye, but they will be inspected with the Block and the Crank.

I would like to prepare the sharp edges off the block, hone the cyl to exactly .010, sand blast the Block inside and out, then bring that to the machine shop and have it magnafluxed as is. If he says it needs to be Bored, then that is that. I leave the Crank and Rods and Pistons with him and let him install the Cam bearings and decide the rest. If I need Pistons, then I will shop for the Pistons and Rings according to the size he wants. Then I can take it home and build it myself or if his price to finish the build is tolerable, then let him do it, especially if he guarantees the work. Even if he wants to clean the Block, after I do, that is OK, I'll take the guarantee. I will have removed every spec of Debrees in the Block, if I am allowed to use my sand blaster carefully, on the outside and inside of the Block. What are your thoughts?

P.S. I have a pressure cleaner for final wash down.

[Gach]

Mike, your asking for trouble!! Big time. Machine measured that block in 5 minutes, and tell how much it needs to be bore. Doubt very much you could hone .010 and still use sane pistons, the can also hot tank that block, or would ever procedure to use to clean. I would never attempt sand blasting a block. Do yourself a big favor and take to a machine shop. The problem is you can read all you want, but sometimes that can get you in big trouble especially if you are inexperienced. Two minutes with a dial bore gage, which will also measure for cylinder wall taper.

[Gach]

Yes you can assemble it yourself that would be a big savings. I can tell you from experience your asking for trouble big time the way your going about this. I’m sincerely trying to help you.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Gach

Mike, you're asking for trouble!! Big time. Machine measured that block in 5 minutes, and tell how much it needs to be bore. Doubt very much you could hone .010 and still use sane pistons, the can also hot tank that block, or would ever procedure to use to clean. I would never attempt sand blasting a block. Do yourself a big favor and take to a machine shop. The problem is you can read all you want, but sometimes that can get you in big trouble especially if you are inexperienced. Two minutes with a dial bore gage, which will also measure for cylinder wall taper.

Mikes reply:

Like I said, I am talking out loud, this weekend I will measure, so I at least learn how to build a motor, I promise I will make the correct decisions and follow your protocol.

[Gach]

What I’m saying is you will learn more by taking it a machine shop, and having him check the bore with a dial bore gage. In front of you, dial bore gage is the most accurate way to check it. Unless you have one, your wasting your time in what ever method you plan on using it to Measure the block cylinders. The ridge is not an issue, it will definitely need boring. Once you follow that procedure you will learn a ton.

[Gach]

So yeah take the block and at least one piston. I will bet money that you will never be able to just hone that block and just re-ring. By the looks of what you have that’s exactly what someone has already done.

[Gach]

What I’m saying is regardless of what the cylinder bores are, I’d be measuring those pistons also to make sure they haven’t collapsed. But if the cylinder bores are bad, you won’t need to, because then you’ll know you need new pistons. In other words what ever method you planned on using to Measure cylinders means nothing. If in your mind you think you can get away with just honing with out making sure those piston skirts haven’t collapse from excessive wear. See what I mean its like opening a whole can of warms.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Gach

What I’m saying is you will learn more by taking it a machine shop and having him check the bore with a dial bore gage. In front of you, dial bore gage is the most accurate way to check it. Unless you have one, you're wasting your time in whatever method you plan on using it to Measure the block cylinders. The ridge is not an issue, it will definitely need boring. Once you follow that procedure you will learn a ton.

Mikes reply:

I probably have about $50,000 in tools (If I were to insure them) from buying them and finding them and fixing them all my life. I bought a Mac toolbox many years ago from a mechanic that when his father died, he needed the money, full of all the automotive tools, that his father used to make a living. So, I will get an idea of what the Machinist is doing, and I will be able to compare his results to mine.

Call it practice, this way I get hands on feeling. After all, what is the reason of me studying, if I don't use my measuring equipment for the first time. Most of these guys have other jobs going and I will not be allowed to watch him anyway. I will drop off the Parts and speak to him on the phone. Once he tells me what the condition my parts are in, then I will see how deep I need to reach into the pocket.

So, I won't pull freeze plugs or oil plugs from the Block, and I won't sand blast it or pressure clean either. I will bump the sharp edges and remove the excess cast flashing, in the areas that need it. Then during the week, I will take the job to a qualified Machinist, that I shop for this weekend, while Lou preps the Block.

By my measuring things first, what the results are, you will know before it even goes to the machine shop, now you will know what to expect to hear from the machinist, see the method behind my reasoning. All it cost me is my time and measuring won't hurt anything, remember the old adage, measure twice cut once. In addition, you are speculating that this Block needs Boring and that is a Challange for me, because it looks too good in reality, and I am the only one that can say that.

Back in post 159 shows me how to measure for the Piston collapse.

[Gach]

50,000 worth of tools…Mike do you have a dial bore gage?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Gach

50,000 worth of tools…Mike do you have a dial bore gage?

I have the "T" looking spring loaded device that inserts down into the cyl., if that is what you mean, plus many different size calipers etc...to measure that length.

Not to mention, I have already, in several places, attached a page depicting the measured Piston cyl. diameter in three places per cylinder, when the engine was in the vehicle, have you seen that? I can repost that, so you have an idea. right now.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

The attachment in post # 194 depicts the taper in cyl. diameter, "not" measured by using a ring, in three places, down in the cyl and measuring at the gap, then taking the smaller number and subtracting it from the larger # and taking the difference and dividing that by (3.1416) when anything over .002" is grounds to get a new piston.

I will be correctly getting information over the weekend, we did not know the method to find the taper of a cylinder, when we took these reading, however, I hope that this information that I took, is somehow helpful for now.

[Gach]

T looking thing is called snap gage. Thats a rough idea. A dial bore is some thing you move up and down the cylinder thats the best way I can describe it Machinist use when boring or hone a block. Most stock pistons ( just as example) lets say they require .005 thousandths piston to wall clearance.

So the question is what did you come up with for piston to wall clearance. Then you have to take into account what its going to need to clear up and get ride of that ridge. Which more then likely cause the broken rings. And yes if you call machine shop and say I want to bring in my block and have you check the bores for me, and see if I can just re-ring it, with the emphasis that you don’t wanna leave the block you just want to check it. Done it what quite a few times.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Gach

The "T" looking Tool is called snap gauge. Thats a rough idea. A dial bore is something you move up and down the cylinder, that's the best way that I can describe it. Machinists use it when boring or honing a block. Most stock pistons (just as example) require .005" thousandths piston to wall clearance.

So, the question is: "what did you come up with for piston to wall clearance? Then you have to take into account what it's going to need to clear up and get rid of that ridge. Which more than likely caused broken rings. And yes, if you call a machine shop to say, "I want to bring in my Block and just have you check the bores for me." See, "if I can just re-ring it", with the emphasis, that you don’t want to leave the block, you just want to check it. I have Done it myself, often enough to know the routine.

Well, since you put it that way, I need to have them turn the Crank and match the Crank and Rod Bearings. They need to magnaflux the block and check the Rods.

Let me send you all the information now and you look at what I have and I will continue to get the rest of my measurements the way that I have learned recently. You will have enough information from what I send you until then, OK, fair enough. Then we will discuss the rest.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes reply:

I am reading the book that I was told to buy, watching videos, gathering information, and this weekend I will be measuring all the areas that need to be measured, the correct way. Next week, I will post what I find and then I will be able to make better decisions. I can tell you this, the Crank must be sent out to be turned and sized for the Rod and Crank bearings. I will be micrometerIng the cyl. walls and Piston grooves to see what their story is. The Block is not bad to the eye, I don't see lines in the vertical direction in the cylinder walls, we do have a ridge. The Rods feel good to the Pin. Rings get replaced and Bearings get replaced, that is a given. I do have the confidence to perform all but the Block magnaflux and Crank turning. I have the tools to do everything for a home build. I built the Trans. How hard can the Engine be. Part of me says do what I can and source out what I can't do. The other side is saying give it to the shop and get a short Block back, done. Let me measure this weekend and I will make my decision next week.

This is speculation at this point, speaking out loud:

The Honing I can do at home means I must use the type of rings that work with this type of stone. I read that I should take off no more than .010" and if the low areas disappear and the ridge is tolerable then a Ring job is all I need, that is if the Pistons past the test. The Rods and Pin look good to the eye, but they will be inspected with the Block and the Crank.

I would like to prepare the sharp edges off the block, hone the cyl to exactly .010, sand blast the Block inside and out, then bring that to the machine shop and have it magnafluxed as is. If he says it needs to be Bored, then that is that. I leave the Crank and Rods and Pistons with him and let him install the Cam bearings and decide the rest. If I need Pistons, then I will shop for the Pistons and Rings according to the size he wants. Then I can take it home and build it myself or if his price to finish the build is tolerable, then let him do it, especially if he guarantees the work. Even if he wants to clean the Block, after I do, that is OK, I'll take the guarantee. I will have removed every spec of Debrees in the Block, if I am allowed to use my sand blaster carefully, on the outside and inside of the Block. What are your thoughts?

P.S. I have a pressure cleaner for final wash down.

Every single thing you said right here, DO NOT DO IT. You do not have any idea what you are doing. Do not sand blast any part of that block. And DO not !!! try and hone your block and remove .002, let alone .010. You will ruin it as sure as the sun is going to come up tomorrow. When you hone a block at home, you remove nothing. No materiel to be removed.
So, leave all of this to a pro and do not do anything you are thinking in your head yourself.
Give this whole thing to a shop and let them give it back to you ready to install. This a a ever loving train wreck.
And, they are rod journals, NOT CRANK PINS !
If you think you need to hone out .010 by yourself, at home, THEN reuse the pistons you are telling everyone here you are a danger to that Pontiac block.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

One more drawing of the Piston that shows where it is to be measured correctly.

The information that you now have is enough for you to see a basic picture of the overall Engine strengths and weaknesses.

Soon, I will give you exact, precise, proper details, like a machinist's draftsmen that I am. My roommate is an electronic genius, so you are dealing with smart people on this end, just trust us and we will provide the Info. that you require, before the Engine ever leaves this shop. You now have everything in one place and this makes it easier to make decisions on my behalf, thank you in advance, for taking on this job.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Every single thing you said right here, DO NOT DO IT. You do not have any idea what you are doing. Do not sand blast any part of that block. And DO not!!! Try and hone your block and remove .002, let alone .010. You will ruin it as sure as the sun is going to come up tomorrow. When you hone a block at home, you remove nothing. No material to be removed.
So, leave all of this to a pro and do not do anything you are thinking in your head yourself.
Give this whole thing to a shop and let them give it back to you ready to install. This a a ever loving train wreck.
And, they are rod journals, NOT CRANK PINS!
If you think you need to hone out .010 by yourself, at home, THEN reuse the pistons you are telling everyone here you are a danger to that Pontiac block.

Mikes reply:

Yes, I have established this and I am simply getting my measurements this weekend.