[steveK]

I have a GM factory manual page with instructions on applying decals on a Trans Am. The pic shows a 69 TA being stripped with a decal. The manual page is dates Feb 70. So that is bit odd wouldn't you say!

[ramair2]

Odd, perhaps but still doesnt change the fact that '69 TAs didnt come with hood decals. Just tells me that Pontiac was sloppy with their assembly manual details!

Glenn: Yes, I would agree that the TA and judge were not clones from a development standpoint. And yes the Judge was in response to the Roadrunner. However those details are beside the point I was trying to make.

The brash 'new' Judges and TAs were right in step with all the other autmakers at that time. The 'outlandish and bold visual packages that began to be offered in 1969 were in large response attempts to get into sync with the young (car buying) culture at the time (pyschodelic 60s, colors, 'groovy' etc). To me its amazing how this snapped into place like an off/on switch within the automotive muscle car world in 1969. IN PMD-land take a look at the top of the line performance Fbody and Abody in 1968. Not much wild craziness going on graphically at that time. You had the (wildly powerful but often very subdued looking) RA II Firebird and GTO. No graphics no stripes no badges, no nothing externally! these were often outfitted for speed and zero else. Super stealth mobiles for sure. In fact many came with poverty dog dish caps, bland colors and bench seats to boot. Saving weight and $ were the goals. Now hyperspace a mere 6-9 months into 1969 and viola we have the bespoilered 69 bright orange judge and the white and blue striped TA! 1968 might as well have been 1868! The new PMD theme for their flagship muscle (Judge) and pony (TA) cars in 1969 was be 'wild bold and crazy'.

The differing development team make up for the Judge and the TA are really beside the point I was trying to make...

I think PMD wanted much more 'visible and graphically oriented' flagship cars for the changing public dynamic in 1969. The TA and Judge were those cars and IMO its no coincidence they BOTH were developed during the same time period and ultimatly were showcased to the public on the same day at the same location.

[rdl]

Originally Posted by BLKBRD

... The only exception to this theory is with the RA III Firebirds, which didn't come with Ram Air decals (to the best of my knowledge), but then again, the ram air engine in these cars was identified as a HO, whereas it was identified as a RA in the GTO (again to the best of my knowledge).

I know you've added a qualifier here, but does anyone know for certain if this is true? There was talk on another board about whether non-IV R/A Firebirds came with decals or 400 badges, but I don't recall the outcome of that debate. Again, the manuals show diagrams for placement of the "Ram Air" as well as "Ram Air IV" decals on the scoop. Has anyone with an original III car looked under their hood to see if the scoops were originally drilled out for badge locating pins? I know the 400 H/O's received the badges, because I've seen at least two of these in person. I have yet to see an original R/A III car. Any help here?

[Chiefpontiac]

Originally Posted by rdl

I know you've added a qualifier here, but does anyone know for certain if this is true? There was talk on another board about whether non-IV R/A Firebirds came with decals or 400 badges, but I don't recall the outcome of that debate. Again, the manuals show diagrams for placement of the "Ram Air" as well as "Ram Air IV" decals on the scoop. Has anyone with an original III car looked under their hood to see if the scoops were originally drilled out for badge locating pins? I know the 400 H/O's received the badges, because I've seen at least two of these in person. I have yet to see an original R/A III car. Any help here?

From my research, no Ram Air hoods received "400" emblems. They were left off to allow the use of the decals, but, obviously not a guarantee to come with them. My original Ram Air hood is currently in bare metal and there is no evidence of there ever being holes drilled in it.

FWIW - I plan on putting decals on my car after it's painted. I like the way they look and it sets it apart from regular 400 cars.

[Tellyshavilli]

To date here is a list of RA III firebirds that have docs. that I have tracked.
2 silver autos
2 white manuals
1 gold conv. manual
2 black manuals
1 blue manual
1 green manual

These cars do not have emblems on the hood and I don't think any where found with orig. paint. My opinion is Pontiac only used the decals on RA IV birds.

If anybody knows of any other Ram air 69 birds please add to the list but make sure they have PHS. I may have forgot 1 or 2 over the years. There is supposed to be another conv. being restored in the midwest .There are less of the RA III's found than the RA IV Birds .

[einstein]

Originally Posted by ramair2

Why would the 1969 TA (in either RA III or RA IV form) NOT come with RA III or RA IV hood decals? <snip> And as we also all know, every single 69 Judge built had either RA III or IV screaming out on its hood.

I meant to mention this other point earlier... I don't recall the "RA III" designation being used until the 1970 model year. I thought the engine we all refer to as "Ram Air III" was actually called the "400HO with Ram Air" during all of the 1969 model run, hence there would be no need for a decal that calls out "Ram Air III".

I guess I need to dig out my July 69 parts book again.

Also, a personal opinion, the less engine info outside the car on higher-powered cars, I think the better. I surely like my Sprint to be so noted, but only because it was so unusual. But I prefer the sleeper approach on the hottest cars, i.e. the ZL1. Most looked like a base 230-CI six at first glance on the dealer lots.

[rdl]

Originally Posted by Tellyshavilli

...These cars do not have emblems on the hood and I don't think any where found with orig. paint. My opinion is Pontiac only used the decals on RA IV birds...

Sorry, there seems to be a contradiction here, or I'm just not clear on what you're saying. Firstly, let's agree on the terminology: decal ("Ram Air" or "Ram Air IV") vs. emblem ("400"). With that, what are you saying about the cars you have seen? Also, did you note whether or not the hoods had been originally drilled for emblems?

[Tellyshavilli]

If Pontiac would have used anything on a RA bird it would have been simply RAM AIR as on the GTO . But I don't believe any decals at all where used

[Tellyshavilli]

Originally Posted by rdl

Sorry, there seems to be a contradiction here, or I'm just not clear on what you're saying. Firstly, let's agree on the terminology: decal ("Ram Air" or "Ram Air IV") vs. emblem ("400"). With that, what are you saying about the cars you have seen? Also, did you note whether or not the hoods had been originally drilled for emblems?

By saying they did not have emblems I also mean that they were never drilled for them either. When I said that they did not have original paint, I am meaning that I cannot be absolutely positive they did not have decals (RAM AIR).

As far as any of these original Ram air 69 birds (including RAIV) there were some hoods that have been found to have dimples exactly where they would have been drilled . These hoods with the dimples were on cars that came from Van Nuys and they had original paint (was a RAIV car) .This was previously discussed in another thread about a year ago ,either here or on Classical.

[rdl]

That's much clearer, thanks. I recall the previous discussion, but I don't recall it resolving the issue either.

[steveK]

I was trying to post an all original paint and engine 69 RAIV TA but file is too big. I saw it at the Dream Cruise this past summer and No decals were on the hood. It was a late built car as it had the speed racer wheel in it. Took many picures of it as I have never seen such a clean survivor before and RAIV to boot.

[keith k]

Originally Posted by BLKBRD

I've never quite understood why they were left off of the '70 T/A's as well. That big shaker just cries out for something. Fortunately, they finally got it right in '71. IMHO, only a total loser would put them on a car that didn't have them from the factory!

With regard to the '70, I suspect it was because the rear inlet shaker on a Trans Am isn't technically "Ram Air"... just cold air. It's placement is too far forward of the base of the windshield to get a ram effect. Pontiac engineers and designers were aware of this from their wind tunnel work, even if the ad copy may have suggested otherwise.

Note that the Formulas with the RA III motor in '70 DID receive the "Ram Air" decal. And although T/As got 455 HO decals on the shaker in '71 and '72, 455 HO Formulas (when equipped with with the ram air hoods) still carried the "Ram Air" decal.

[65madgoat]

Can it be confirmed that no RAM AIR or RAM AIR IV decals were ever installed by the factory on 1969 Trans Am hoods?

[tom s]

I bought my 69 T/A from a guy named John Rand in MI.in 2000.The engine from that car was the RAM Air 3 engine that was used in the pontiac mag with the dyno shoot out of exhaust manifolds.Had original paint as I remember Vin 223379N103830.I sold it to John Riconda from NY in 2008.It had the short deck SCCA 303 engine it and he got the original numbers matching engine with it.As I remember it just had Ram Air on the hood.It was a car Scott Tieman helped me find.FWIW,Tom

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by einstein

I meant to mention this other point earlier... I don't recall the "RA III" designation being used until the 1970 model year. I thought the engine we all refer to as "Ram Air III" was actually called the "400HO with Ram Air" during all of the 1969 model run, hence there would be no need for a decal that calls out "Ram Air III"...

I do not mean to nit pick, but I think you are mistaken.

I cannot recall at this time of PMD ever referring the 1970 YZ & WS 400's as anything other than simply "Ram Air" engines.

I believe that the confusion stems from the 1967/1668 'Ram Air' (D-port) engines which were replaced/superceded with the 'Ram Air II' mid 1968, then the 1969 & 1970 model years offering both 'Ram Air' (D-port; essentially a return of the original configuration 'Ram Air' engine) and 'Ram Air IV' - but even then the "IV" was intended to refer to the number of air inlet paths(?), and not actually refer to it being the fourth iteration of a "Ram Air" engine.

I believe that the "Ram Air I" & "Ram Air III" are terms coined by journalists which stuck.

But I am all ears for any PMD literature which uses "Ram Air III".

[muscle_collector]

wow this is an old thread revived and i dont remember seeing it back then. so i know i have posted this picture before in another thread, but will post it here for documentation on the ra4 cars.
this picture is of my ra4 car taken by the original owner when it had just been picked up from the dealership and driven around 7 miles to his house. you can clearly see the ram air iv decal on the hood.

[muscle_collector]

no idea why it turned the picture and cant figure out how to fix it. sorry

[unruhjonny]

wow.
had I noticed this was an ancient thread I would have stayed quiet.

[65madgoat]

Curious on Trans am hoods -- not Firebird hoods...and if a decal was placed on a trans am hood was it towards the nose or by the location where 400 emblems were placed on Firebird hoods.

I see the prototype 1969 T/A has the Ram Air decals on/around the middle of hood not towards the nose

[Tellyshavilli]

Originally Posted by 65madgoat

Curious on Trans am hoods -- not Firebird hoods...and if a decal was placed on a trans am hood was it towards the nose or by the location where 400 emblems were placed on Firebird hoods.

I see the prototype 1969 T/A has the Ram Air decals on/around the middle of hood not towards the nose

No they were not placed on hood by factory