[bigunde]

I have a 71 firebird that i am putting air back in.Will the 134a work with my existing setup?I have heard rumors that it will not work with the 71 expansion valve.Thanks for any help.

[bigunde]

I have a 71 firebird that i am putting air back in.Will the 134a work with my existing setup?I have heard rumors that it will not work with the 71 expansion valve.Thanks for any help.

[JC455]

There are multiple problems installing the 134a Refrigerant in your system, not the least of which is the fact that the condensor was designed for R-12 and does not enough capacity for the 134a setup.
That not withstanding, I know that they make multiple conversion kits for your purposes. You need to make sure EVERY bit of oil is gone from your system and it is replaced with the new (PAG) oil. It wouldn't hurt to replace the O-rings either.
There's also the possibility that the Hi/Lo switch may give you problems because the refrigerants operate at differing head pressures.
You can get a lot more info (way more than I can supply) by contacting Vintage Air (??? www.vintageair.com ??) and asking for a catalog.
On a side note... A refrigeration repairman friend just got a hold of some stuff called FR-12 (marketed under varying names) that is a DIRECT replacement for R-12 (in commercial uses, of course [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] ). I'm going to put some in my buddy's T/A, but it's gonna be a while before that's done. When I finish it I'll post the results.
My refrig friend asked the salesman if it could be used in automotive systems, and the guy said no (while nodding yes). He said the factory does not approve the refrigerant for automotive systems (but guys are using it for that very purpose). This stuff costs about $7.00/lbs and if it works, should be a God send.
Good Luck!!
Later-->


------------------
John

[mike nixon]

john, be sure this stuff you're going to use isn't propane. there have been alot of problems with this type of refridgerant in cars. a small leak can be a big problem with a flammable coolant and someone useing a torch under a hood. one other thing , if you put it in most likely you're liable for it. mike

[Richard Ohran]

Mike, have you heard of any specific instances of problems with propane, or just general Dupont propaganda? I know several guys who use a 16 oz bottle of Bernzomatic propane together with a 4.5 oz can of campstove fuel (iso butane) to replace a standard 3.5 lb Freon charge, and it works great. There have been some posts by people with credentials on Usenet who claim it is 20 percent more efficient than Freon. The installations I have seen run extremely cold. Best part is that it only costs about 4 bucks for a complete recharge. I doubt that the kinds of leaks that automotive AC units have could generate enough propane to create a flame with a torch. One of the guys had a leak where the refridgerant was leaking in out within a couple of weeks and we could barely find it with my combustible gas detector. (I have one to detect gas furnace leaks). I'm sure that if you had a wreck and ruptured the heat exchanger in front of the radiator, you could have a fun situation, but it would be relatively short-lived because it wouldn't take long for a pound and a half of propane to evacuate out of the system. I've always been suspicious of how R-12 was just fine until Dupont's patent ran out, and then all of a sudden it was a great environmental hazard and we all had to switch to R1134a which, incidentally, Dupont has the patent on.

From what I have seen, I wouldn't hesitate to use the propane and campfuel combo if any of my cars could use it. The question is academic for me, however, because none of my older cars (2 61 Bonnevilles, 69 Mustang) have air conditioning, and all my newer cars run 134a.

Richard O

[mike nixon]

there was a write up in a trade mag about two years ago of a situation in cincinatti ,oh. evap leak on a late 70's 88 olds. the car went to an exhaust shop for a pass side manifold leak and the evap case was full of propane. you can geuss the rest of the story. the guy with the torch had burns over 70 percent of his body.
one other thing i was taught, when freon burns it produces toxc fumes that are similar to nerve gas.
i've no doubt the combo you use cools well,it's been used in refridgeration units for years.
i doubt the r-12 story also, as to test for freon leaks you have to be on the lower side of the leak as freon is heavier than air. the ozone is in the upper atmosphere . something doesn't add up here. mike

[george kujanski]

I found this website awile back... has some useful info in it regarding the refrigerant issue.
http://www.epa.gov/docs/spdpublc/title6/609/index.html

Regards, George

[Richard Ohran]

An interesting question is why the EPA is so dead set against hydrocarbon refridgerants in vehicles. One would think they would be tickled to see people using something that is accepted to be non-harmful to the environment as propane and butane are classified. Now, I could understand if the DOT was upset about it. After all, safety is their mandate. The EPA's mandate, however, is environment protection not safety. Why are they pushing everyone to R134a instead of hydrocarbon refridgerants? I've read somewhere that R134a is also considered to be harmful to the environment, and as soon as Dupont's patents run out, I'm sure we'll all have to switch to something else.

This reminds me of something else: is anyone here old enough to remember how good sodium cyclamate worked as an artificial sweetener before it was determined to be cancer-causing by researchers who were heavily funded by the sugar industry? Did you know that people in Europe still use sodium cyclamate? I bring some home every time I go to Europe.

hmmm,.... I'm going to stop now, before everyone realizes how cynical I am....

Richard O

[Half-Inch Stud]

..does anybody remember DMSO..Dimethyl Sulfoxide. A solvent extracted from wood.

Good to put onto bruises, scars, warts, etc. Promotes absorbtion of dead tissues into the body. After about 30seconds from application, you'll get a taste of garlic in your mouth. That's fast absorption eh?

Some 'research' was done in thr 50's saying it caused blindness. That was bull. A 80+ year old fell I know [retired chemist] still uses the DMSO, and he see just fine.

[78 GHOST]

Hi everybody, I just thought I would share some useful airconditioning links with everyone. I agree that 134A isn't as effective as R-12 and cannot be used in an R-12 system without modification.

Newer R134A systems must operate at a higher pressure to obtain optimum cooling. Even with "optimum" cooling 134A is not as efficient as R-12 at initially cooling off the vehicle and can suffer some in heavy traffic if the condenser isn't big enough.

A few months ago, I gathered the following sites to use when I get around to fixing both of my R-12 systems on the GTO and the 'Bird. I was surprised to learn that R-12 is still legal to USE just not to PRODUCE domestically. Many sources exist for R-12 in the USA and it can be purchased in the "1 Pound" cans at a premium price. The only catch is that the purchaser must provide a photocopy of their EPA 608 or 609 certification. We want the 609 certification which allows the purchase of small containers of R-12. 608 is limited to only larger sized containers.

Certification for the individual can be obtained on-line in an afternoon for $25 at: http://epatest.com/

The DIY A/C service isn't dead yet if you follow the rules on recovery and evacuation at: http://www.epa.gov/docs/spdpublc/title6/609/index.html

If you need tools for A/C service, here's a good site: http://www.acsource.com/

If you need to locate some R-12 or other refrigerant you can word search R-12 or go to: http://www.refrigerant-supply.com/

Good luck and stay chilly, Matt [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[78 GHOST]

P.S. does anyone have any good experiences to share with a replacement refrigerant. I am particularly interested in "Autofrost". Thanks, Matt [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[Gooatee]

I have heard alot of good things about a Drop-in called Hot Shot! It comes in a red can with a blue bullseye! One of the guys at the supply house told me about it and he said they had to pull the one pounders off the shelf and put them in the back because they were not supposed to be selling it for cars, as per EPA regs. I agree that it is easy to pick up your certification and simply use R12, but the cost of the gas is through the roof! It is a revenue making scheme worked up between the EPA, Washington, and Dupont! If anyone took science and chemistry they no that "Global Warming" is the natural progression of the recession of the Ice Ages!