[Scott65]

I sometimes wonder about this subject from a little different perspective. How serious are the purist? What's the ultimate goal? Are they willing to shrink the hobby even further than it has, and will go due to popularity by demographics? If even one of these fantastically styled Pontiacs is kept on the road, or rescued and returned to former glory, are we really gonna crucify the thing because of the powerplant? One example that comes to mind is the 52 Chieftain Kindig built (saved). That thing could easily have gone to the crusher, but is one of the most beautiful Pontiacs I've ever seen. Sinner or Saint for saving such a beautiful car(with a modern drivetrain)? I'll bet our hosts would rather keep selling everything except engine parts than sell nothing... Just makes me wonder... And my Pontiac still has a Pontiac in it, just fyi.

[1965gp]

Isn’t it funny how you can look something up to make a point and prove yourself wrong?

Check out this build. Most of us would have passed on the car or parted it out. Aftermarket sunroof, not a desirable color, interior probably needs redone. Guy bought the car to drive, spun a bearing so he swapped in his LS2/6 speed in pretty quick fashion (according to the thread). Patina isn’t for everyone (kinda like the LS) but it looks cool and uniform on this car.

So I would say that the LS swap saved this car when most of us probably wouldn’t have. I still think this car has 15-20k in it for the swap, but it’s nicely done. Hopefully he kept or sold the Pontiac motor.

Link to build

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...a-patina-build

[taktikian]

To me it would be like seeing a very attractive woman but then finding out it was all cosmetic surgery. The mystique, the aura and impact is diminished

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by 1965gp

It’s not the $2000 swap people think it is.

Very true words.

1979 TA w/ LS3 EROD and TKO600: $10,500
1971 Lemans w/L84* and TKX: $11,000

No donor parts though, all new and about half what an assembled IA2 injected motor would cost.

*L84 is NOT an LS but the follow on LT series of GM engine with direct injection, variable timing - very little interchanges with earlier LS architecture. That said I really wish GM would stop recycling engine designations, ie. LT1...

[Stuart]

How many times has this topic been hashed over, with no resolution? It's part of the reason why this board has tech sections for LS motors as well as a general section for non-Pontiac engines.

People have been arguing about this sort of thing forever. It probably really started in 1949 with the introduction of the Oldsmobile and Cadillac overhead valve engines, and then came to a head in 1955 with the introduction of the small block Chevy. You know people were swapping those engines into their hot rods five minutes after donor cars showed up in salvage yards.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by Stuart

How many times has this topic been hashed over, with no resolution? It's part of the reason why this board has tech sections for LS motors as well as a general section for non-Pontiac engines.

People have been arguing about this sort of thing forever. It probably really started in 1949 with the introduction of the Oldsmobile and Cadillac overhead valve engines, and then came to a head in 1955 with the introduction of the small block Chevy. You know people were swapping those engines into their hot rods five minutes after donor cars showed up in salvage yards.

Exactly. First the Flathead Ford was the swappers dream. Then the OHV Caddy's and Old's. Then the SBC, for decades. Now the LS is the flavor of the month. I like Pontiac engines in my Pontiacs. And I've owned and driven them that way for over the past 40 years. To the gent who had to go to an LS and an overdrive for economy: I average 21+mpg in my '67 GTO convertible at 75-80 mph with the original 400 engine, original Q jet, and original points distributor. With no overdrive. (Just a 2.56 rear gear!) I have put over 130,000 miles on this car and I overhauled the engine at 173,000 miles back in 1988. It now has about 260,000 miles on the clock. All done with Strato Streak power.

[b-man]

When you’re rolling down the highway the hood is closed.

To each their own.

I don’t care what’s powering your car and how I power my cars is my business.

I build my cars to please myself not to please you or to get your respect or approval.

[71GP76TA]

The guy that has the shop next to mine.. (he grows pot). Asked me when I was going to put an LS in my numbers matching LS5 '70 Chevelle. He has a super nice '70 Cutlass convertible. When he bought it .. it was a super clean bone stock California car. He wanted more power so he had the hot rod shop around the corner install a 500hp BBC. That wasn't enough so about a year later he had the same shop rip out the BBC and install a 800hp LS3 with a supercharger. Personally... I would have left the car alone. I also have a hard time wasting money...


I don't get it when people swap to a late model powertrain for fuel economy. For what it costs to do the swap... you can buy a lot of F'in gas.

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by 71GP76TA

I don't get it when people swap to a late model powertrain for fuel economy. For what it costs to do the swap... you can buy a lot of F'in gas.

Do the math and see where the break even point for $9 a gallon gas lies for 10 mpg and 22 mpg.

[Tom Vaught]

In either of my 64 "GTO Vehicles" (one is a Lemans), I would put aftermarket Pontiac engine parts on/in the vehicle but not a Chebby or BB Chevy "Clone Engine".

The Chassis might be almost original with "Safety Mods". (Better brakes, better steering,
better handling).

The interior has proper safety seats (3-point) Not the "flop forward/ Flying Grandmother" seats.

Very big on the safety items. No fun if the car kills you with outdates basic parts.

Tom V.

[jerry455]

Pontiac is a feeling, yes, the Pontiac motor is important. The styling is different from any other GM car. They have a feeling different from other GM cars with their handling. My 1976 Firebird drives a lot different than my wifes 2017 Camaro SS with a 455 hp LT1. I like her car, but I also like how my car drives. The torque is much better than in her car. They drive differently and that is fine. I am building a better 455 Pontiac motor, Edelbrock heads, hydraulic roller cam, lighter stroker crank with lighter forged rods and pistons and a few other improvements. Everyone always asks why I am building a Pontiac instead of an LS and I tell them that when looking back on the cars that I remember fondly and having the most fun with, it was a Pontiac engine in GTOs or Trans Ams or a Can Am. I prefer Pontiac cars with a Pontiac motor but if the owner likes a different motor in it, then go for it. Enjoy your car. Thats what is important.

[Sirrotica]

I don't get it when people swap to a late model powertrain for fuel economy. For what it costs to do the swap... you can buy a lot of F'in gas.

FWIW, I owned a 1968 Pontiac Bonneville 400, 4bbl, TH 400, with a 2.56 gear, advertised 340 HP. On a trip I averaged about 17 MPG back in 1978. My LS2 05 GTO 364 Cu In fuel injected 3.46 rear, with an 4L65E OD transmission, it gets roughly 20 MPG on the highway. Advertised 400 HP.

Even if I did the cheapest junkyard swap in a classic car that I could for $4000, how long would the payback take? I'd be dead before I broke even............

Just a common sense look at one of the justifications given to swap late model parts into older classic cars.

I'm not arguing one way or another, but financially it doesn't wash with my math. At the end of the day, your car, your decision.

Personally, I stick with Stratostreak engines in my classic cars, but that's my car, and my opinion.

I've done plenty of swaps of Stratostreak engines in to non Pontiac cars, and trucks, mostly just for the satisfaction of doing it. It surely wasn't cheaper/easier than replacing the OEM engine with another like engine. I also never did it for fuel economy reasons. I did it for my own reasons.

Back in the 60s there were plenty of engine swap kits made to swap Stratostreak engines into almost anything with wheels, but when Pontiac was forced to end their racing programs, the swaps tapered off because the cars weren't any longer the hot setup without some factory engineering pushing the envelope constantly. The aftermarket also dropped off during the late 60s early 70s with aftermarket parts dwindling it made it just that much tougher to field a fast Pontiac. I've however always managed to come up with enough money, and parts to run Pontiacs in my cars, race cars, or street cars.

[carcrazy]

When you go back to the 50's, 60's and 70's, I like them the way the factory built them! They were the cars of my youth. While I have owned and appreciated many LS based cars, my Pontiacs (American) would always have Pontiac power. Now, I am not a hard-core purist. I have no issues with swapping sizes or performing modifications....just not changing manufacturers!

[OG68]

Gotta love the flathead. Kudos to those who kept them where they belong.

Dad went from a 34 to a 36 to a 40 Ford then a 50 Mercury before buying a 52 Olds. The GTO was another ten years in the future
(Not his cars in photos)

[Elarson]

The fact that people have an opinion, one way it another, is a healthy thing. If nobody cared, our hobby is done.

Eric

[HoovDaddy]

Pontiac V8s were great in their time but so were flatheads, both are arguably more expensive to build today than a LS or SBC. LS and SBC engines with their compact size and power potential is the attraction for me. Our Bird still has the original engine, but as I get older it is getting some changes.

LS engines have been in production for nearly the same number of years as Pontiac V8s. LS engines have arguably had more reliability issues than Pontiac V8s ever did.

I grew up with customs, so I've never been a purist but I understand it. The challenge of modding cars, having something different over the past 54 years is what keeps me going.

[71GP76TA]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

Do the math and see where the break even point for $9 a gallon gas lies for 10 mpg and 22 mpg.

Where are you living that gas is $9/gal? I live in CA and its half that. Most of my classic cars hover around 12-15mpg. In most cases if I keep my foot out of it they'll do better than that. They are not my daily drivers... so it really doesn't matter.

Best I've wrung out of my '21 Scat pack Challenger is about 20-21 average on a 3500 mile round trip vacation....

I pretty much don't care about fuel economy as I do not commute. I do not want 8 mpg either...

[65madgoat]

Yeah, if you care about the cost of gas when owning/driving a vintage car - go buy a prius. You are not meant for this hobby. Ha. I drive my 675hp 1969 Firebird a lot. 10mpg at best. Happy it is 10 so it is easier to calculate mileage per tank. Doh.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by 71GP76TA

Where are you living that gas is $9/gal? I live in CA and its half that. Most of my classic cars hover around 12-15mpg. In most cases if I keep my foot out of it they'll do better than that. They are not my daily drivers... so it really doesn't matter.

Best I've wrung out of my '21 Scat pack Challenger is about 20-21 average on a 3500 mile round trip vacation....

I pretty much don't care about fuel economy as I do not commute. I do not want 8 mpg either...

He’s retiring in Europe.

So of course they have outrageous fuel taxes over there.

[kingbuzzo]

Being in Canada, Pontiac powered birds are rare which is why I flew 3000miles twice to own them.

I grew up in a time when there was brand loyalty. A silly concept today but that's my generation.

I also love driving something DIFFERENT...although it would likely be cheaper keeping a Camaro on the road lol it's just not the same.

That Being said each his own...and whatever keeps the kids interested