[darbikrash]

Found a 1965 GTO that I will have to drive some distance to look at- and I cannot determine the VIN until I get there.

Here is a shot of the engine, this is supposed to be an original unmolested CA car, non P/S non P/B, auto w/4 bbl. Can anyone comment on this photo- are there any clues to this being a legitimate GTO. I'm not sure about those valve covers, factory 389? Air cleaner?

[IMG]

[John V.]

Calif sold cars (not all Fremont builds went to Calif dealers) were required to have the Calif Closed Circuit Crankcase Ventilation System starting with '64s built after Dec. '63.

I am not entirely familiar with the '65 version but I believe the Oil Cap seen in the pic is the correct '65 unvented type required. I think the Air Cleaner may also be the correct type used with the Calif system.

Not much to go on, but nothing out of order in my eyes.

I assume it was built at Fremont. There won't be anything in the VIN or on the Data Plate that will confirm it as a GTO. Best you can do is establish that it was built as a Lemans with V8. After that, you will need to rely on the physical evidence and the PHS Billing History Card to determine if it was built with the GTO option.

[Andre]

That car seems to be missing all of the A.I.R. pump and hoses etc, or the aircleaner and valve covers were borrowed from another car.

[Kenth]

Andre, are you sure A.I.R was used on 1965 California GTO´s?

Not mentioned in the 1965 Tempest Chassis Shop Manual.

[John V.]

Andre, no A.I.R. pump used for the '65. That was a '66 thing.

The mid '64/'65 Calif closed crankcase system was essentially the next generation Positive Crankcase Ventilation system that was introduced for '63 Model Year.

The downside of the first PCV system was that it depended on vacuum to open the PCV valve and suck crankcase vapors (resulting from ring bypass) back to the intake for reburning. In the case of the Pontiac engine design "clean" air to replace the air being sucked out under vac conditions entered the crankcase by way of the vented oil cap.

This was light years better than the draft tube ventilation system it replaced, not only in terms of emissions but also in terms of engine performance.

But under low vacuum conditions, the PCV valve would close and vapors were vented to the atmosphere. Instead of allowing clean air in, the vented oil cap now allowed crankcase vapors to vent to atmosphere.

Recognizing this loophole in emissions control, Calif legislated that these fugitive vapors must also be captured.

So for the closed system, the vented oil cap was replaced by a non-vented oil cap.

Under normal vac conditions, the regular PCV system routed the vapors to the intake manifold pulled by intake manifold vac.

Under low vac conditions, plumbing was added so that excess vapors under crankcase pressure in excess of the pressure in the plumbing were routed to the Air Cleaner where they would be sucked into the Carb, again to be reburned.

Under normal vac conditions and the PCV valve open, make up air was fed to the crankcase by reverse flow in the plumbing and air drawn into the air cleaner.

Under either operational condition, the crankcase vapors impacted the fuel/air mix. Carbs are "dumb" so maintaining proper fuel/air mix was effectively impossible under all operating conditions.

But these early emissions control schemes did do a significant job in controlling the vapors that slipped past the rings into the crankcase.

Emissions that went directly out the tail pipe as products of combustion in the cylinder were a separate problem to be dealt with subsequently.

The A.I.R. pump system was designed for post combustion burning of the exiting gasses to help with tail pipe emissions.

[brut4s]

The air cleaner and valve covers look correct for a 1965 California built and sold car.

[geeteeohguy]

I'm with brute4s. That engine compartment looks like an original CA '65 GTO set-up to me, and I've seen a few of them over the decades. Never saw the GTO sticker on the CA air cleaner assembly, though. The fan may or may not be oem....most '65 fans have a notch in each blade to clear the PS pump hub, on both PS and non PS cars. Other than that, looks original and un-messed with.

[John V.]

'65 notched fan was the 19-1/2" dia. HD fan and was not at all common. Used for A/C applications and required at added cost when 3.90 gears were Special Ordered. Extra cost option in other cases and very rarely ordered.

The std. GTO fan was the bent tip 18" dia. fan, did not have notched tips. Was aluminum blade (a design first introduced in late '64 from the first design steel blade to deal with issues of water pump failure).

By far the most common in '64/'65 GTOs.

Both GTO fans included a fan clutch.

Hard to tell in the pic, but probably has the common bent tip aluminum blade fan and is most likely correct and original.

[darbikrash]

Many thanks for the helpful replies. I've pretty much convinced myself it is in fact original and factory correct, but that air cleaner really threw me. Genuine thanks to John V. for his excellent description of how the PCV systems of this era work.

The car is a very low option car put in storage in 1979 and not driven or started since. The seller is the original owner. It has an A/T, AM radio, console, and little else in the way of options. I'll run the PHS numbers when I get there tommorow, and if it checks out it will be on a flatbed shortly thereafter.

Here is another photo of the engine, you can clearly see the PCV connecting to the air cleaner.

[cuz68]

John V, That was some very good info, Thank you Randy. BTW Darb my 68 has the pipe on the pass side like yours, When you get it home post some photos for us.

[John V.]

That sounds like a neat story kinda car. Looking forward to learning more about it. Don't forget to collect as much of the Owner's story as you can and write it all down. That kinda history is irreplaceable.

Just one clarification.

The PCV valve still plugs into the valley cover at the right rear same as the 49 State set-up. And is plumbed by hoses and a connector to fittings, one to each plane of the 2 plane intake manifold (so that vapors are fed evenly to both sides of the engine).

The pipe you see from the left side valve cover to the air cleaner is the added plumbing used to create the closed system.

Normally, air flow in this pipe is to the crankcase providing make-up air, so I don't refer to it as the "positive" ventilation side of the crankcase vent system.

Pontiac referred to the Cal system as the Positive Closed Circuit Crankcase Ventilation System.

What made it "positive" was the use of engine vacuum to draw the vapors out of the crankcase. With the old draft tube design, vacuum was created while the car was moving. At about 25 mph and slower, no vacuum, no "positive" venting.

I'm probably being overly analytical about the thing and trying to overstate the semantics.

But I think it helps to sort out the functionality of the individual components to get a grasp of the intended operation of the entire system.

One thing for sure, as with all of the PCV systems, if the engine is in poor condition with too much blowby, the PCV will not work well and the engine will not perform well.

But with an engine in good condition, the Cal system is a pretty elegant solution to the problem of controlling ring blowby.

And pretty neat to see the Cal system today because they were kinda rare. Not to mention that guys were pretty quick to rip them out because early smog devices were blamed for a lot of engine performance problems.

[geeteeohguy]

Thanks for clearing up the fan issue, John. I'll add that while most early closed PCV systems were done away with, they did not adversely affect engine performance as commonly thought at the time. In fact, like the open PCV systems, they reduced pressures in the crankcase and allowed the engine to scavenge crankcase vapors while at the same time preventing oil leaks due to crankcase pressure. As stated, a simple and elegant solution. The '65 in question that the OP is asking about is no doubt a real GTO and looks like an excellent find.

[John V.]

Yep, ditto all that. Sounds like a really neat find being one owner.

I'll add that when Cal first passed the law requiring PCV valves, in particular when they revised it to require the closed type, the problem was mostly that they required retrofit devices for used cars (with certain exceptions) when they changed hands.

If the engine was in bad shape, the closed system made things worse. Most of these cars weren't worth the engine overhaul. So they were junked. Or violate the law if you could get away with it. Or maybe sell the car out of state.

But before Cal legislators latched on to the crankcase emissions issue, engine designers recognized the merits of positively scavenging vapors from the crankcase. These vapors which were mostly unburned fuel that contaminated the oil which resulted in bearing wear and so on.

Also, the oil leaks you mention in part because the inefficient draft tube could plug up, oily vapor under excess crankcase pressure was gonna escape somewhere.

So the PCV was not just a good emissions control device, it solved an engine performance problem as well.

The engineers were mostly on their toes. The PCV valve was designed to close in the case of a backfire for example, else a backfire could ignite the gas vapor in the crankcase with catastrophic results (one reason to make sure the PCV valve is not stuck open).

When the closed system was designed, they had to consider backfires from the other side of the system. That explains the element at the air cleaner to hose connection.

Can't wait to learn more about this GTO.

[60sstuff]

I too am looking forward to seeing more of this 65! PHS will verify if it's a true GTO but the chrome air cleaner lid and valve covers suggest that it is. I'm especially fond of the cars built with the CPCV system as they are very rare this day and age! If you acquire this 65 I hope you elect to keep it as Original as possible (more valuable) and share info and pics.

Yes, Mr. John V. does a wonderful detailed discription "as always" on the purpose and function of the CPCV system!

Below is an illistration showing the CPCV system from the 66 Tempest Chassis Shop Manual which is essentially the same except for the design of the air cleaner and tube assy. and a couple photos of another 65 with this system. The correct factory finish of the steel vent tube (LH valve cover to air cleaner) is unclear as to whether it's painted black or a type of protective plating was applied? Pics below show tube painted black (all 64 and 65 Tri-Powers with the CPCV had a black painted tube), but I have seen cad plated tubes such as the above featured 65 seems to show?

Also the aluminum curved tip fan shown in above pics is the correct style for this car.

Note - the OEM chrome oil fill cap should have AC stamped in the center as shown below.

[darbikrash]

Went to see the car today, and it is significantly rougher than I had hoped with evidence of surface rust on the roof and at the usual locations immediately below the windshield and rear window.

The car had a vinyl roof at one time, it has been removed and the underlying metal is now somewhat rusty. The floor pans look good, the trunk floors recently repainted (with in the last few days) undoubtedly to disguise rust.

The odometer shows 39,000 miles and it is likely correct.

I left without the car, as the price was not commiserate with the condition.

Later this afternoon, I had called Jim at PHS with the VIN number, and he stayed late at the office on a Friday of a long weekend to run the numbers.

The numbers came back as confirming the GTO option code- as expected it is in fact legitimate.
As mentioned, very few options, except for one thing:

I had noticed on the firewall plate the paint code was 22A, which seemed odd, there should be only one or two digits, then a space and the partial word SPEC.

The build sheet confirms this was a special order paint code- Tiger Gold with the black vinyl roof.

I left thinking that I was done, now I don't know. Comments?

[geeteeohguy]

Real special order Tiger Gold '65's are a rare breed, and command more $$$. That said, can you post pics of the car (if you took any) and if I can be so bold, what was/is the gentleman's asking price? The plot thickens.....

[60sstuff]

If that mileage of only 39,000 is legit plus the rare color code in addition to it being a CPCV car than you have something special to think about.

[John V.]

Not clear if you think the Paint code 22A on the Fremont Data Plate is strange.

2=numeric code for Special Paint lower body color and quite likely Tiger Gold
2=Black upper body color for the Cordova Top option
A=Black Wheel Color

Special Paint coding was not uniform from Plant to Plant, you may have seen "SPEC" on a special paint car Data Plate elsewhere, not true of them all. Fremont always coded the Wheel Color, other Plants did not.

Most likely the odometer has rolled over, so would have 139,000 miles on it unless the condition of the car is a lot sharper than you've described for some of it.

Can't tell you what it is worth to you, but for somebody that likes a Tiger Gold '65 GTO Hardtop, sounds like a pretty good find.

If you liked it except for the 22A code and the price, I think you can rest easy on the 22A. After that, perhaps make an offer based on what you think it is worth. If the Seller says no, you should have no regrets.