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  #81  
Old 08-20-2016, 01:33 PM
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gtofreek gtofreek is offline
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That's what he ordered.

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64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction.
87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles
99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles
86 Bronco, 218,000 miles
  #82  
Old 08-20-2016, 02:05 PM
tom s tom s is offline
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if the engine is going in a 61-64 big car he might need that adapter.The block is thicker than the first gen adapter.Tom

  #83  
Old 08-30-2016, 10:26 PM
darbikrash darbikrash is offline
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Dyno day today. Packed up the engine and headed over to Westech for an all day session on their engine dyno.

All in all, everything went pretty smooth, but as anyone who as ever done this will attest, it's never easy. Set up and connection to the dyno went well, a little trouble with throttle linkage as they don't do many tri-powers these days, but we got it settled in without too much trouble.







After break in:


The fun started when we finished the dyno hook up and turned on the water pressure. We found a hairline crack in the timing cover near one of the bolt bosses, and it was leaking- a lot.

We had to resort to some JB Weld (!) to patch up the crack temporarily so we could continue the dyno runs, otherwise I was going home if we could not patch the leak.

The JB Weld held up fine, and setup in about 15 minutes. It did not leak a drop for the rest of the day. That's what you get from a 50 year old cover I guess.

The big concern for me though was the break-in, as I ran a custom grind Lunati flat tappet solid lifter cam. I had it Nitrided and used the EDM oil hole on a the lifter face, but there are too many stories about cams going flat on break in for my comfort. Also, we have an untested Tri-power, and I opted not to break it down to the center carb only for break in.

But I needn't have worried, Dick Boneske did the Tri-Power, and he really nailed it. We primed the oil pump, set the initial timing, and it fired up immediately, not even three revolutions and it lit. We never touched the idle mixture all day- it was perfect right out of the box.

Not a single oil leak anywhere, not a drop. I used the graphite "rope" rear seal, and it was tight as a drum.

We ran for about 1/2 an hour at 2,000-3,000 rpm using the dyno to vary load, never letting the engine idle during this critical phase. By keeping an eye on the torque at the upper end of the load swings, we can see if a lobe is going flat, and it stayed rock steady during break in.

After a 1/2 hour or so of careful break in, constantly varying the load, we shut it off to take apart the valve train and install the inner springs, which I had removed for break in.

Once installed, we set the lash at .016 hot, and got ready for the power pulls.

We got a peak of 449 HP @ 5500 RPM, and peak torque of 509 lb/ft @ 4100 RPM. I forgot the thumb drive there with all the raw data and graphs, so I'll have to wait until they send the drive to me, but in the mean time here is the raw data from the best pull at 36 degrees of timing.



All in all, I'd say it was a successful day, this will be a nice daily driver for the big 4 speed 2+2 Catalina.

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1964 Catalina 2+2 4sp, 421 Tri-power
1965 GTO, Roadster Shop chassis, 461, Old Faithful cam, KRE heads 305 CFM,
Holley EFI, DIS ignition.
1969 GTO 467, Edelbrock 325 CFM, Terminator EFI
1969 Firebird Convertible
  #84  
Old 08-31-2016, 12:30 AM
Nicks67GTO Nicks67GTO is offline
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The more I look over these 4" stroke combos the more I wonder why guys don't build them as often? That seems like a perfect driver combo. Is there any chance you would like to disclose the cam specs?

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-1967 GTO HO Restomod. PKMM 433ci, SilverSport T56 Magnum 6spd, Moser 9", SC&C and a bunch of other pro touring goodies

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  #85  
Old 08-31-2016, 01:09 AM
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Good job John! That thing has a flat power curve. From 5000-5800 RPM, it didn't vary by more than 4.5 HP. What did I guess that cam would do several months back? Didn't I guess 450 HP, and 500 Ft. Lbs. That A/F curve is pretty damn flat also.

Almost 472 ft. lbs. at 3200 RPM. Isn't that about what a stock 421 peaked at?
What did your compression end up being again?
What octane gas did you use?

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Carter Cryogenics
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520-409-7236
Koerner Racing Engines
You killed it, We build it!
520-294-5758

64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction.
87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles
99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles
86 Bronco, 218,000 miles
  #86  
Old 08-31-2016, 09:41 AM
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61-63 61-63 is offline
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I've been following this thread and thank you for the dyno results; interesting.

Nicks67 the cam specs are on the dyno sheet at least I think that is what I see there; 228/232 @ .050, .550/.565 valve lift, on a 9.5:1 cr engine. Is that correct someone?

  #87  
Old 08-31-2016, 09:51 AM
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I'm pretty sure I remember that cam being 232/241 @ .050", or there abouts.

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Carter Cryogenics
www.cartercryo.com
520-409-7236
Koerner Racing Engines
You killed it, We build it!
520-294-5758

64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction.
87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles
99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles
86 Bronco, 218,000 miles
  #88  
Old 08-31-2016, 10:55 AM
darbikrash darbikrash is offline
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Thanks guys. I didn't have the cam card with me when we filled out the dyno sheet, the correct cam specs are 239/243 @ .050, lift .545/558 using 1.65 rockers. Keep in mind the solid lifter cam is lashed to .016 hot, so this softens the duration considerably as compared to a hydraulic cam.

LSA is 110 degrees, installed 4 degrees advanced. Final compression was 9.5:1, and we used 91 octane pump gas for the dyno pulls.

On another note, the Catalina rolled into the paint shop Monday for a fresh paint job. Wait until you see the color!

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1964 Catalina 2+2 4sp, 421 Tri-power
1965 GTO, Roadster Shop chassis, 461, Old Faithful cam, KRE heads 305 CFM,
Holley EFI, DIS ignition.
1969 GTO 467, Edelbrock 325 CFM, Terminator EFI
1969 Firebird Convertible
  #89  
Old 08-31-2016, 04:07 PM
tom s tom s is offline
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Did you pump it?Tom

  #90  
Old 08-31-2016, 04:19 PM
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gtofreek gtofreek is offline
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Scroll up and you will see the dyno sheet.

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Carter Cryogenics
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520-409-7236
Koerner Racing Engines
You killed it, We build it!
520-294-5758

64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction.
87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles
99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles
86 Bronco, 218,000 miles
  #91  
Old 08-31-2016, 05:29 PM
tom s tom s is offline
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LOL,NOT the dyno pump!Pumping compression!Tom

  #92  
Old 08-31-2016, 05:30 PM
tom s tom s is offline
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Paul,give me a LITTLE credit to read the complete thread!Tom

  #93  
Old 08-31-2016, 07:30 PM
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I'm sorry Tom. No offense intended. Thought you meant dyno, when you said pump it.

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Carter Cryogenics
www.cartercryo.com
520-409-7236
Koerner Racing Engines
You killed it, We build it!
520-294-5758

64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction.
87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles
99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles
86 Bronco, 218,000 miles
  #94  
Old 09-03-2016, 05:03 PM
darbikrash darbikrash is offline
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Here is the data in graph format, easier the see the curve:


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1964 Catalina 2+2 4sp, 421 Tri-power
1965 GTO, Roadster Shop chassis, 461, Old Faithful cam, KRE heads 305 CFM,
Holley EFI, DIS ignition.
1969 GTO 467, Edelbrock 325 CFM, Terminator EFI
1969 Firebird Convertible
  #95  
Old 09-03-2016, 05:28 PM
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Nice flat curves!

  #96  
Old 09-03-2016, 05:54 PM
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That's a Harold cam for ya!

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Paul Carter
Carter Cryogenics
www.cartercryo.com
520-409-7236
Koerner Racing Engines
You killed it, We build it!
520-294-5758

64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction.
87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles
99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles
86 Bronco, 218,000 miles
  #97  
Old 09-04-2016, 09:49 AM
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Nice looking motor! And great results.

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
  #98  
Old 09-05-2016, 07:44 PM
darbikrash darbikrash is offline
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I've ordered a new timing cover from Kaufman, so I'll get this on later this week when it arrives. In the meantime I dumped the break in oil out and cut open the filter to inspect for any junk after the dyno run.

About a matchead of very fine material on the magnetic drain plug, nothing in the oil, the filter clear when cut open. Everything looked great.

While on the stand, I hooked up and shimmed the starter, and decided to do a cold cranking test with a compression gauge to answer Tom's question.

Cold cranking compression was 182-185 psi for all cylinders.

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1964 Catalina 2+2 4sp, 421 Tri-power
1965 GTO, Roadster Shop chassis, 461, Old Faithful cam, KRE heads 305 CFM,
Holley EFI, DIS ignition.
1969 GTO 467, Edelbrock 325 CFM, Terminator EFI
1969 Firebird Convertible
  #99  
Old 09-08-2016, 09:04 PM
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Arrow Great results...

Outstanding 421 build utilizing the best practices, processes, and parts available .

Nice meeting you at Enderle's breakfast cruise last Sunday, John, and thanks for posting this very informative thread.

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'66 GTO Post/468, 700R4, 3.31 (Mike's as of 9-16)
'68 Grand Prix/455, dual AFBs, T400, 2:93 posi (sold)
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  #100  
Old 09-10-2016, 08:30 PM
darbikrash darbikrash is offline
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Thanks Les, nice meeting you as well.

Took a long drive today to visit with the Catalina, it is back in the body shop that did my GTO. The've had it just a week and it is stripped and down to bare metal. They are promising the car to me the 2nd week of November.

No rust on the car, and other than a few "excessive" bondo areas, no surprises- this was a clean car. These guys will metal work any dents and low spots out, and fix up any panel gap issues. The car is in surprisingly good shape. I was able to locate all the fender spears, and also found some nice dog dish hub caps that I am considering using on my steelies, supposedly Super Duty caps.

Down to the metal:



Complete set of fender spears on the ground next to the car:



Panel gaps are pretty good already:



Rear view, that is the original Saddle Brown paint in the bumper cove:



They left a patch or two of bondo to show me how thick it was, these patches have got to be 3/8" thick. This will all be metal worked back to shape without bondo.



These square cutouts were located on the front passenger fender. We can't figure out what these could be for, they were covered with tape and of course, bondo. This is the original fender. They are not on the driver fender. Any ideas? You can also see a patch was welded in previously- par for the course.





I got four of these on Ebay, supposedly Super Duty hubcaps. Anyone care to verify what these are? I kind of like them, and as I am doing something quite different with paint on this car, I want to change up the trim. I'm going to nickel plate these and respray the PMD background in matte black, same treatment (brushed nickel) for the fender spears.


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1964 Catalina 2+2 4sp, 421 Tri-power
1965 GTO, Roadster Shop chassis, 461, Old Faithful cam, KRE heads 305 CFM,
Holley EFI, DIS ignition.
1969 GTO 467, Edelbrock 325 CFM, Terminator EFI
1969 Firebird Convertible
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