[Louis]

Hi, I'm a big GP fan and just bourgt a 69 sj 428 h.o.,my question is ,is there a web site that can give me info on; how my vin # breaksdown? what all the #'s mean on cowl tag? and also what all those option codes (ie;348)mean on buildsheet? also does any body know the 1/4 mile time in stock form for this car?

[Louis]

Hi, I'm a big GP fan and just bourgt a 69 sj 428 h.o.,my question is ,is there a web site that can give me info on; how my vin # breaksdown? what all the #'s mean on cowl tag? and also what all those option codes (ie;348)mean on buildsheet? also does any body know the 1/4 mile time in stock form for this car?

[mike nixon]

louis,
according to the 69 service manual the info is as follows.
vin tag;
1st # = division
2&3# = series
3&4# = body style code#
5# = year
6# = production plant
remaining # are id #

note all v-8 cars id# are to start with the# 100001.
6-cyl engines [ tempest& firebird models only] are to start with the # 600001.

cowl tag:
upper left corner [st]= model year-divison series & body type
[tr]= trim # [3 digits]

upper right corner [body] 1st 3 dig = ass. plant/ last 6 digits = unit number.
[paint] 2 digits. 1st digit= lower body color or roof cover, 2cnd digit= upper body color or folding top.
[ note ;this doesn't sound right to me but is how it is printed on page 0-1 of an oem service manual circa 1969. i think the first# is lower paint and second# is upper paint color or top color]
center digits between tr & paint[3] are the time built code

i hope this helps you out ,i'd have scanned the page and sent it to you but the scanner is only working in some foreign language and we have yet to find the problem. mike

[This message has been edited by mike nixon (edited 06-11-2000).]

[This message has been edited by mike nixon (edited 06-11-2000).]

[Louis]

hi Mike,

My v.i.n. is :276579p114293
my cowl tag: st 6927657 pon 15045
tr 278 73
o9c 23 2 f
can you tell me what these all mean?
any road test on a 69 GP 428h.o.?
should this car have come with a 12 bolt rearend? or did the 70 gp 455 come with a 12 bolt?

['ol Pinion head]

Louis, The '69 GP's all came with 8.2 10 bolts. Safe-T-Track was an option. Every '69 SJ, I've had (all were A/C cars), came with a 3.23 4pinion Safe-T-Track. In 1970, when the 455 was introduced, the 455 cars got Pontiac's casting of a 12 bolt. Most were singletracks. From the cowl tag info, your car is a relatively early car built the 3rd week of September 1968. Not sure on the color, believe you have a black interior? Production wise, I believe there was something like 423 428HO automatic & 92 4speed 428 HO '69 GP's, though don't quote me on the #'s, this is from memory. Have never seen split between # of model J's & model SJ's with optional 428HO. I believe our moderator GP-K, also owns a really slick '69 428 HO GP. GP-K, do you have any other #'s on these? Around here, one of our projects is a '69 model J 428HO, red with white vinyl top, red guts, hard loaded car. Like to hear from anyone with red '69 GP interior parts. Louis, if you can post some more about your car, A/T, M/T, no A/C, A/C, ATC, leather interior? Just don't run across many 428HO GP's anymore...Roger

[Louis]

Roger, Yes my car has black interior,not leather,it's sort of lime green exterior,don't know if it's the original colour as I don't know how to read the code on cowl tag.It has in dash tach,p.s,p.d.b,remote mirror,safety track and performance axle (supposedly came with 3.90 gears)am radio,th400 trans ,white vinyl top and that's about all the options it has.I'm curious to see what it will run at the track as it is all stock and original under the hooh,long branch manifolds,orig. air cleaner etc... anyone that has 1/4 mile times for these cars in stock form please let me know what you have.
Louis

[Blackcat]

My old 69 SJ would run 13.25 in the quarter all day. It had 3:90 posi. I would drive it 90 miles to the strip race and drive home.
Most of the other racers(Chevys)were trailered. After 4 years I sold my car. (moving out of state and too many cars) Most of the other racers were on their 3rd or 4th engines. My car still had the same compression and the trans would still chirp the tires. I wish I still had the old girl!

['ol Pinion head]

Louis, I have a local buddy who picked up his low mile 390 horse A/T, 3.23 geared SJ in the summer of 1987 or 88. It was real original, still had the optional H70-14 original Polyglas tires & original dated plugwires. In a 100 degree heat & with no tuning, it ran 14.80's @ NMCA races @ the Texas Motorplex, 2 days after his purchase. There was definitely a little time left in it to whittle down & conditions were less than optimal (hotter than fire). I believe the old High Performance Cars magazine ran a test of a Royal Bobcatted non A/C 69 428HO GP with 3.90's. If memory serves me right, this test car ran high 13's, maybe better. This is the only 390 horse '69 GP test, I've ever seen. It is very rare to see these with factory indash tach's or hood tachs. Also don't see many non A/C GP's, @ least I don't. Usually, it takes going to a big POCI convention to view a 4speed 390 horse '69 GP. Hope to see some killer examples in Grand Rapids, next month. Sounds like you got a keeper, e-mail if you like, I need to research these a little more myself.

[GP-K]

Well, Well, a little activity here!

Roger, the numbers you gave sound about right. I do know that there were around a 1000 manual transmission cars built in '69 and '70, with most being model J's with 400's. Not many 428 HO's were built, and even fewer 428 HO's with a manual tranny.

Roger, my GP was built in August of '68, so it is also a fairly early production model. It does sound like my SJ, and your J model are somewhat similar. (red w/white vinyl top, etc.)

But as far as mine being "slick", well it has a long way to go, especially since it's partially disassembled right now. It is an HO 4 spd with leather and power and a dealer installed hood tach.

It is going to cost me a fortune to have the drivers seat recovered and re-done to match the rest of the interior.

I have the "corporate" 12 bolt in mine, after I broke the factory 4 pinion posi.

Louis, as far as performance, I have several old road tests from '69, and the quarter mile times vary from 15.3's @ 91 mph for an fully loaded automatic 370 hp 428 SJ, to 14.0's @ 102.1 for a Royal Bobcat prepped 428HO 4speed car. The other '69 428 cars, and the '70 455's ran numbers pretty similar to the non-Bobcat cars.

My car ran severly traction limited 13.9's @ 110 the last time I had it at the strip. Blackcat's 13.25's are exceptional for a mostly stock car. (What tires were you using then?) We will see what the new E-headed engine will do in a fully restored body with BFG Drag radials and the rest of the whistles and bells.

later,

K.

[Keith Vrabec]

I can answer a few questions about the 69 GP's, lets start with the numbers...

Total production-112,486
SJ -11,083
Manual trans (All combinations)-1105
428 HO Auto -986
428 HO M20 -94 (wide ratio 4 speed)
428 HO M21 -22 (close ratio 4 speed)
428 HO M13 -3 (three speed trans)

Source-Fred Simmonds.
There is no breakdown for SJ HO and J HO available.

I know a guy whose Dad had an HO 3 speed car. Unfortunately it went to the crusher long ago.

I'm always looking for manual trans stuff, would like an extra frame bracket that mounts Z-bar. Anybody have an extra? Might have a guy to make some repro ones, need a pattern.

Hope this helps.
Keith


I do have some red interior parts available for sale or trade.

['ol Pinion head]

Keith, Thanks for the breakdown. I had seen the 94 4speed figure before, but was confused as to whether that was M20 production, or M20 & M21 together. You cleared this up. Still need to send off for the PHS documentation on my red car, its fairly loaded with PW, ATC, tilt, woodwheel, AM-FM Reverb, powerseat, etc. Kind of strange for a J. The 986 auto HO's is quite a bit more than 423, oh well, glad to get #'s right. Congrats on your cars, have seen @ least one of them @ Nats over the years, very nice.

[Keith Vrabec]

Glad I could help.
O.P.H.:
All the HO cars are "the ones to have" so I would be too disappointed about the "high" number of automatic cars. But if you're still a bit blue, just take it out and hit the gas....Should fix you right up.

Thanks for the complement about the cars. The really neat stuff is Dad's. I do prefer the 69's over anything else and would be glad to help all of you out with restoration if I could.
Keith