Then and Now

[RandyW]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carbking:
Champ - the Buick was not a V-8, I believe the first Buick V-8 was 1955.

As to the cell phone, I may be making a mistake here. After my triple bypass, I am supposed to walk regularly (which I do). Possibly the fuel injection system is really trying to care for me in forcing me to walk!

Jon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See there! Those computers know what they're doing!

[Dragncar]

Can some one please tell me some specs on the LS1.Center to center on the rods.Piston pin diametter.Main and rod bearing diametter.Bore and stroke. Buick,Olds,Chevy and Pontiac all made 350s.So what.Why are people talking litres.It is irrelevant to this disscusion.

[The Champ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
Buick,Olds,Chevy and Pontiac all made 350s.So what.Why are people talking litres.It is irrelevant to this disscusion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The LS1 is listed by GM, the manufacturer, as a 5.7 liter engine. Converted to CI's, I believe it is a 346.

Pontiac has never built a 350 V8. They built a 347 and a 354.

Not sure of the actual dimensions on the Olds or Buick "350's".

[Goathead]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> CI's, I believe it is a 346.

Pontiac has never built a 350 V8. They built a 347 and a 354.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, the Pontiac motors were bigger...

[Dragncar]

You guys are missing the point I am trying to make.I do not care about the liters or realy even the CID.I want to know the internal dimmentions of the LS1.Agine,rod center to center,rod and main diamiters,Main bearing spacing,thrust cap location,piston pin diameter.Head bolt pattern.If any sbc crank will "lay down in the saddles" correctly it is a sbc.I find it hard to believe GM would not use as much off the shelf parts as possible,"new sheat of paper" or not.It is very expensive to make new crank and rod forgings.People have been trying to get a 4340 forged crank for real Pontiacs for years and still no luck.

[The Champ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
You guys are missing the point I am trying to make.I do not care about the liters or realy even the CID.I want to know the internal dimmentions of the LS1.Agine,rod center to center,rod and main diamiters,Main bearing spacing,thrust cap location,piston pin diameter.Head bolt pattern.If any sbc crank will "lay down in the saddles" correctly it is a sbc.I find it hard to believe GM would not use as much off the shelf parts as possible,"new sheat of paper" or not.It is very expensive to make new crank and rod forgings.People have been trying to get a 4340 forged crank for real Pontiacs for years and still no luck. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We understood your point. You don't seem to be understanding the facts.

The LS1 and it's derivatives are a new design.

The bore spacing is 4.4 inches - the same as the SBC. But except for hydraulic roller lifters and rod bearings, nothing else interchanges with a SBC.

Yes, new cranks are expensive when you only want to make a few thousand of them, but when your plans are to make millions of them, the cost is negligible if the new design is better.

[rabon008]

SAE Technical Paper 970915 titled "1997 GM 5.7 Liter LS1 V8 Engine".

This paper is written by seven GM Designers and Engineers and relates the DESIGN of the (then) new LS1 engine. I cannot post the entire paper because SAE sells them at $12 bucks a copy ($9.60 for members). All the specs are in the back of the paper and there are numerous differences to the SBC/LT1. Overall block length is shorter, block width is wider, firing order was changed to reduce crank arm stress and improve main bearing life, the crankshaft nose was lengthened while the overall length of the crank is shorter by more than an inch. Side pods were added to the cylinder block and ventilation holes where added to the cylinder block bulkheads. In addition to these there are significant sealing systems, valve and head design differences, etc. that set the LS1 apart from the SBC/LT1. If you really want to know that the LS1 is NOT the SBC/LT1 "dressed up" but rather a new design, then I suggest you buy the paper. You might learn something. It's very technical but very interesting reading for us engineers.

[rabon008]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rabon:
SAE Technical Paper 970915 titled "1997 GM 5.7 Liter LS1 V8 Engine".

This paper is written by seven GM Designers and Engineers and relates the DESIGN of the (then) new LS1 engine. I cannot post the entire paper because SAE sells them at $12 bucks a copy ($9.60 for members). All the specs are in the back of the paper and there are numerous differences to the SBC/LT1. Overall block length is shorter, block width is wider, firing order was changed to reduce crank arm stress and improve main bearing life, the crankshaft nose was lengthened while the overall length of the crank is shorter by more than an inch. Side pods were added to the cylinder block and ventilation holes where added to the cylinder block bulkheads. In addition to these there are significant sealing systems, valve and head design differences, etc. that set the LS1 apart from the SBC/LT1. If you really want to know that the LS1 is NOT the SBC/LT1 "dressed up" but rather a new design, then I suggest you buy the paper. You might learn something. It's very technical but very interesting reading for us engineers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What, no more from the LS1 is just a SBC/LT1 gallery? Or have you run out of any real technical arguments?

[J Brady]

HaveYou guys that bash the new GTO ever really thought about the 1st gto. It was really averry poor car with not much real performance. It handeled like a tank, it had no brakes, and it really wasn't very fast. It took alot of changes to get one to run low 13's. The 04 is a tremendous car and does everything pretty well. As for the LS1 being a Chevy engine, who cares it produces good power rpms great, is fun to drive, and for 005, just like 1965 is a pretty darn good looking car. Give it a chance, Thank Lutz for have the guts to bring a car like this to this country and give us a chance to own one.

[Dragncar]

Rabon,where do I go or who do I contact to purchase Technical Paper 970915.As forjbrady,you said "who cares".Who cares about what motor is in your GTO as long as it runs good. Is that your point.Well that is what this whole thing is about,a LOT of people care.No true fan of Pontiacs could ever say they do not care which motor is in their car.One of the biggest things about being a real Pontiac fan is taking your Pontiac motor and beating the other guy with it.And not joining them.Lets face it,Pontiac people are different,if you can not understand that I do not know what to say.The 1964 GTO started somthing big,and realy ticked Chevy off.Time will tell on the 04.

[J Brady]

Dragncar, I have been around Pontiacs for 50 years, and their is no bigger fan of the traditional Pontiac engine. I have raced everything from Ahra classes in the mid sixtys to Super comp the last few years with traitional Pontiac power, but the fact is the LS1 corporate motor is a much better design than what pontiac did in 1955, and by the way their are a lot of things simmilar to the small block chevy in our pontiac motors. The original 64 GTO was a stone compared to todays LS1 and as far as durability it wasn't even close. I love them to and even though it took me 40 years to see the light and put a 565 chevy, or I guess you could call it a Pontiac in the S/Comp car, I am building a nastalgia S/S 61 catalina for next year also, and it has a 455 with E heads, so you know i still beleive in the Pontiac powerplant. We purchased a 02 WS6 TA with the LS1 and a 6 speed. In good air with street tires it will run 13.30's bone stock, get 24 to 26 mpg, ps, pb, and air. show me any traditional pontiac powered gto or Firebird that will do that just the way it left GM. I Had a 62 421 Catalina, a 67 Ram Air Firebird, 67 Ram Air GTO, 68 Ram Air GTO and many others and none of them would run that fast bone stock. Yes after headers distributor work carb rejeting and slicks they would run in the twelves pretty easy,but they were misreable to drive everyday. 35 years ago I was enough younger that I didn't realize how miserable they were but now I do. I love my old gto's and Catalina's ,but In reality they don't compare in anyway to the performance comfort and drivability of a new LS1. thats a fact!

[rabon008]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
Rabon,where do I go or who do I contact to purchase Technical Paper 970915.As forjbrady,you said "who cares".Who cares about what motor is in your GTO as long as it runs good. Is that your point.Well that is what this whole thing is about,a LOT of people care.No true fan of Pontiacs could ever say they do not care which motor is in their car.One of the biggest things about being a real Pontiac fan is taking your Pontiac motor and beating the other guy with it.And not joining them.Lets face it,Pontiac people are different,if you can not understand that I do not know what to say.The 1964 GTO started somthing big,and realy ticked Chevy off.Time will tell on the 04. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The paper can be found on the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) website. Its under "Shop the SAE store" and "Papers". Do a search there to find it.

As to ticking off Chevy with the '64 GTO, I think Chevy (particularly Vette) lovers are plenty ticked off that the premier GM powerplant is once again being used in a Pontiac as it was in the WS6. Only now, GM has an improved version with the LS2 and guess what, Vette lovers don't even get to have one year as exclusive users. Pontiac gets the premier GM engine in their premier car and for thousands less than the Vette. Oh, I think Chevy guys are plenty ticked off that GM management has committed to making the new GTO a real musclecar performance value.

[rabon008]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by j brady:
Dragncar, I have been around Pontiacs for 50 years, and their is no bigger fan of the traditional Pontiac engine. I have raced everything from Ahra classes in the mid sixtys to Super comp the last few years with traitional Pontiac power, but the fact is the LS1 corporate motor is a much better design than what pontiac did in 1955, and by the way their are a lot of things simmilar to the small block chevy in our pontiac motors. The original 64 GTO was a stone compared to todays LS1 and as far as durability it wasn't even close. I love them to and even though it took me 40 years to see the light and put a 565 chevy, or I guess you could call it a Pontiac in the S/Comp car, I am building a nastalgia S/S 61 catalina for next year also, and it has a 455 with E heads, so you know i still beleive in the Pontiac powerplant. We purchased a 02 WS6 TA with the LS1 and a 6 speed. In good air with street tires it will run 13.30's bone stock, get 24 to 26 mpg, ps, pb, and air. show me any traditional pontiac powered gto or Firebird that will do that just the way it left GM. I Had a 62 421 Catalina, a 67 Ram Air Firebird, 67 Ram Air GTO, 68 Ram Air GTO and many others and none of them would run that fast bone stock. Yes after headers distributor work carb rejeting and slicks they would run in the twelves pretty easy,but they were misreable to drive everyday. 35 years ago I was enough younger that I didn't realize how miserable they were but now I do. I love my old gto's and Catalina's ,but In reality they don't compare in anyway to the performance comfort and drivability of a new LS1. thats a fact! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree about the WS6 being much more comfortable to drive than the vintage Pontiacs. To take your point even further, I have put around 7,000 miles on my '04 GTO and can say that the improvement in driving comfort versus the WS6 of only 2 years ago is even more astounding. I have driven it on several occasions for 3-4 hours at a stretch (try that on the fuel economy of many of the vintage Pontiacs) and never once felt fatigued, as I have in late model SS's and Firebirds. Yet, with all this driving comfort, it is still a true performance car right off the lot.

[Dragncar]

Thanks for the info Rabon.I do not know how you guys do this,it takes up so much time.John Delorean said Pontiac made Chevy mad with the 64 GTO.I believe Chevy made Pontiac pay for it as they had the power in GM.Pontiac wanted to build different cars ,motors and programs that were sqwashed by Chevy in the board room.I do not have the time to get into it now but I will later.Chevy had to be the fastest,they had the power .THAT is why true Pontiac fans must hate Chevy for it.We are still paying for it today by the fact that we do not have all of the iron to play with that we should have.And do not compaire the 04 GTO to the 64 GTO as far as driveability,comfort ect.That is just stupid.If you are going to do that compare all cars from 64 to 04.We all know the differances.jbrady,'see the light".I can not say what I realy think,I do not want to get kicked off.But I will try and play nice.If it was up to guys like you we would never have the products from my heros,All Pontiac,JBP,Kaufmans and DCI.How much flywheel horsepower does your BBC make,what does it weigh and what is your 1/4 mile et.

[rabon008]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
And do not compaire the 04 GTO to the 64 GTO as far as driveability,comfort ect.That is just stupid.If you are going to do that compare all cars from 64 to 04.We all know the differances. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I compared the '04 GTO to the '02 WS6 in driving comfort and, even in that small two year span, there is a huge difference. The new GTO is a pleasure to drive, in every way.

[J Brady]

dragncar, I don't no you either! Yes it is silly to compare the two cars, but that is what everyone who is cutting the new cars down are doing. As far as our 565, it made 937 HP with one 4 barrell on gas and we have about $13.000 in the complete motor. Try doing that with a Pontiac! We race NHRA S/C and bracket race and we ran a IA block with Edelbrock heads at 505 inches for several years Ran the motor on injection with twin toilets and the fastest we ever went was 7.70;s at 172mph. Worked on it all the time fought oil leaks and ring seal constantly. The 565 made over 300 passes last season and all we are doing is basic rebuild. Like I said I love Pontiacs and the thrill of trying to compete with them and I will try again with the 61 Catalina this next year. I don't think you will find anyone more devoted to the Pontiac hobby than I am, I just am a realist and no their limits. The guys like Scott Rex And Jack Gadosh are living proof that you can make one fly, but they have huge dollars in their motors and they like to thrash on them. I would have loved to have some of the parts that we have available to us today 10 years ago, I would have had one of the faster Pontiacs. The LS1 is a great engine and is every bit as deserving as the 389 ever was. You can tell me what you really think anytime you want. I will just keep having fun with my WS6 and plan on a new 05 GTO just like I did in 64 and 65, 67, 68, 69, Trans Ams In 70, 73 and 74. I have also over the years raced a 63 Tempest in the Mid 70's that ran 10.40's A 68 Firebird in the early 80's that ran low 10's then quit for a few years to devote my time to my business, then in the late 80" hooked up with Jim Butler and Tom Vaught to bracket race a 64 GTO that I had at the time and drove it on the street and it ran 11.0's with no power adders, stock rear suspension and an 8 inch tire and D port heads. Built a 64 GTO Super Gas car that is now owned by one of Beswick's crew members and is still raced. Yes they were all Pontiac powered You may not no me but I have to think that I had a little bit to do with the Pontiac power that we no today. I think I have a little knowlege about the Pontiac mystique!

[carbking]

Rabon - you are possibly correct on comfort level of newer cars versus older ones (although radial tires on the older vehicles really helps both driveability and comfort). However, don't think that older muscle cars HAVE to get poor fuel economy.

My 1964 tripower GTO would get 21-22 MPG at 65 MPH highway. I had several others that would do at least 17. The worst car I ever had for fuel economy was a 1959 6 cylinder bowtie. I never got 14 out of that vehicle. Even my 1968 Ford pickup with 390 gets 17 (better than 18 if I would leave the cab high camper shell on).

Jon.

[Goat luver]

Rabon wrote:I compared the '04 GTO to the '02 WS6 in driving comfort and, even in that small two year span, there is a huge difference. The new GTO is a pleasure to drive, in every way.[/QUOTE]

Rabon, I totally agree with you. I traded in my 02 WS6 TA for the 04 goat. It was the best decision I ever made with regard to car choice.
The 04 GTO is way more comfortable, handles way better and out performs the TA in every way (in my experience).
I can take corners at way higher speeds than I could with the TA.
The 04 GTO is just superior and in a two year time span it's like "chalk and cheese"

[rabon008]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ozzy:
Rabon wrote:I compared the '04 GTO to the '02 WS6 in driving comfort and, even in that small two year span, there is a huge difference. The new GTO is a pleasure to drive, in every way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rabon, I totally agree with you. I traded in my 02 WS6 TA for the 04 goat. It was the best decision I ever made with regard to car choice.
The 04 GTO is way more comfortable, handles way better and out performs the TA in every way (in my experience).
I can take corners at way higher speeds than I could with the TA.
The 04 GTO is just superior and in a two year time span it's like "chalk and cheese"[/QUOTE]

I put many miles on a 2001 SS and know exactly what you are saying. At first, the driving comfort of my new GTO made me think twice about trying to take curves at the speeds I would have taken them in the SS or my Firebird. I soon learned that the driving comfort was not given to me at the sacrifice of handling.

To carbking: I have personally seen a '72 Chevelle get 21 mpg on a 500 mile trip. Nevertheless, my '04 GTO easily gets 25-26 mpg on the highway and 17-18 tooling around the city. Using the "instant fuel economy" digital readings from the info center it gets less when I really "get on the pedal".

[Dragncar]

Hi Guys,working long hours for the next week or so I do not have time to "ramble".But I will,kind of like it.The more I find out on the LS1 the more I think it is a sbc.Gen 3 I think they call it.That is for later.Mr.Brady,you might want me to tell you what I think, but the people who run this site might not.This site gets a lot of trafic and I love it.Want to stay on it.I am "gogoat " from "Dudes" board but it seems dead now so I come here.I do not cut the 04 GTO down because I compaire cars of the eras,I am not stuipid.Contrary to what some people might think on this thread.I am a Pontiac die hard.I discount the 04 GTO without even seeing it in person,I do not think of it as a GTO,or a real Pontiac.It is a Monero with a gen 3 sbc,period.Pontiacs lost thier heart and soul after 1979.Were no longer Pontiacs.I will talk on what Pontiac could have and should have had later,if it were not for Chevy later.Now limits,the limits are changing fast.real fast.Even though you are invested in that bbc I hope you will come back when you find out the gap is closing,fast.