[John V.]

I'd like to see any articles featuring the silver prototype(s). Curious if there was a man trans version.

Can any TA guys confirm what I surmise to be true, that the Chicago Auto Show car was likely the same car that was featured in the TA advertising and the Sales Manual TA cut sheets?

Further to my comments that the 2nd TA Bulletin was mainly a clarification, consider:

1. The base TA transmission was the same as the base Firebird 400 transmission so it is redundant to have added this notation since the 1st Bulletin intended to note only those additions beyond the Firebird 400 equipment.

2. Code 481 Dual Exhaust was only optional for the 2 bbl 350, it was a standard feature for all other V8s, including the Firebird 400. It was redundant to identify it as an added TA feature over the base Firebird 400.

3. Code 672 Heavy Duty Battery was also a standard feature for all V8 except 2 bbl 350, redundant as an added TA feature.

4. 14" dia., 7" wide steel wheels was standard for the Firebird 400, redundant as an added TA feature.

One could have reasonably assumed that the higher level Engine (RAIV) and Transmission choices that were available for the Firebird 400 would have been optional for the TA also, the 2nd Bulletin simply spells this out. The most significant content change between the 1st and 2nd Bulletin appears to be the inclusion of the Safe-T-Track differential. The specified 3.55 axle ratio did not change and I do not know if an open diff 3.55 axle was even offered for the Firebird 400 so it is unclear to me if this was actually an indication of added content or a clarification that the 3.55 axle was only available with locking diff. Either way, I'm guessing the plan was to include the Safe-T-Track diff all along.

Misc. wording changes can be found on the 2nd Bulletin. The Front Fender Air Extractors were called "Simulated" while they were called Brake Scoops on the 1st Bulletin, implying they were functional. Perhaps early prototypes were functional but in production they opted for "simulated" scoops.

Point is, the 2nd Bulletin did not "correct" a bunch of errors. There were at most 4 actual changes indicated, including the change in location for the Trans Am decals, if the prototype Brake Scoops were functional. There were 2 errors corrected, including the correction to the PS Sales Code and the elimination of the Ram Air Inlet as an included option. The rest of the revisions can be characterized as clarifications meant to confirm what the 1st Bulletin intended.

And if I didn't make it clear in my earlier post, the Silver prototype(s) made use of a specific prototype fiberglass hood, which was shown to the Press 2 months before the 1st Bulletin was written. Clearly, it was known at the time the 1st Bulletin was written that the TA was to get a hood very different from the Firebird 400 hood.

The issuance of the 2nd Bulletin in no way would have signaled a change in the planned hood as suggested by 1969TA by his statement, "No,The "350 Engined" Promotional 1969 Trans Ams had 400 hoods. When they started production they then added the trans am hood. Thats why there's two bulletins." That is nonsense. The TA hood was planned and prototyped months prior to either Bulletin.

[Cammer-6]

John, good research.
yes the base trans for a T/A was the Dearborn(same as the 400)
base differential for T/A was the 3.55 posi as was the variable rate PS ,1 inch sway bar,and the PDB.
Adding all this up at $724.60, standard equipment made the T/A a real bargain.
Not mentioned here but noteworthy was the 455 coupe that Adams played with before settling on the 400 for the T/A.This car had all the T/A equipment including the T/A hood but was painted a different paint scheme and had the yet to be released 455.

[1969T/A]

Originally Posted by Cammer-6

Not mentioned here but noteworthy was the 455 coupe that Adams played with before settling on the 400 for the T/A.This car had all the T/A equipment including the T/A hood but was painted a different paint scheme and had the yet to be released 455.

I told John V about that car
When he was helping me research my D80 coded Convertible Firebird
There use to be a link to it on classical pontiac site.
But not long after John V read the article the link was removed.
He said he never heard of the car.
There was also some type of prototype that had 400 hood and rear spoiler.
heres the pic

[John V.]

1969T/A, hmmmm.

I have not forgotten your D80 'bird. I have continued to search for the story that would explain that mid March '69 coding on some Lordstown Data Plates. Nothing new on that front. But not forgotten.

But I do not recall you telling me about the Herb Adams 455 car or reading any article at CP about it. The linked pic does ring a bell. Not sure of the relevance to the 350 TA promotional cars claim.

No doubt Herb Adams played with a number of "test bed" 'birds. How does that relate to your belief that some 350 engined TAs existed?

[MikeNoun]

The 1969 prototype 455 was not a 1969 Trans Am prototype, it was a 455 prototype (I originally wrote the Classical Pontiac article). Check the link in my signature for the new article. Also has details on a tribute car that would have been the next logical step had Pontiac pursued the 1969 Firebird RAIV 455 project.

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

The 1969 prototype 455 was not a 1969 Trans Am prototype, it was a 455 prototype (I originally wrote the Classical Pontiac article). Check the link in my signature for the new article. Also has details on a tribute car that would have been the next logical step had Pontiac pursued the 1969 Firebird RAIV 455 project.

Mike as with most test mules they changed hats quite frequently.
The same car also sported all the TA goodies,hood, extractors,etc.
Yes I would call it a Trans Am prototype.
However Ive never heard of 350 Trans Am prototypes before,I believe those are really the PFSTs .

[1969T/A]

Originally Posted by Cammer-6

Mike as with most test mules they changed hats quite frequently.
The same car also sported all the TA goodies,hood, extractors,etc.
Yes I would call it a Trans Am prototype.

For some reason if my memory is correct the car use to be silver.
At least it looked silver in the other pics?

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by Cammer-6

The same car also sported all the TA goodies,hood, extractors,etc.
Yes I would call it a Trans Am prototype.
However Ive never heard of 350 Trans Am prototypes before,I believe those are really the PFSTs .

Cammer-6, Engineering Car 9723 had nothing to do with the 1969 Trans Am. Engineering Car 9723 was built after 1969 Trans Am production had already begun. Also, Engineering Car 9723 never had a Trans Am hood or side extractors during its lifetime. The car was an engineering and syling excerise (test mule) to test the new 455 with RAIV heads, and had nothing to do with the 69 Trans Am package. Pontiac Engineering simply added the Trans Am rear wing, and then some black accents. I also have a photo of this car from May 1969 when Pontiac Engineering attached a large chin spoiler (painted black) similar in design to what Chevrolet used on their 1970 Z/28 (wrap around).

I too have NEVER heard of a 350 powered 1969 Trans Am. However, I may have a source for both myths (Carousel Red Trans Am prototype and 350 powered Trans Am).

1. There were index cards (like trading cards) issued in the mid-1990's that were VERY popular. They sold thousands of sets, and long before we had the internet, the numbers matching craze, and 6 different Musclecar related magazines on the newsstands, many people used these cards as gospel. Within the set of index cards was a 1969 Trans Am that had a transplanted 350 Chevy engine (these cards were later used as a basis for a Barnes & Noble produced book on Musclecars, I cringe whenever I see it). Over the years, I personally ran into several people on cruise nights that thought the 350 Chevy was the standard engine in the Trans Am.

There is also some confusion because of the phenomenal work that Royal Pontiac did with their 1969 Firebird 350HO back in 1969. Their test car made the cover of a Super Stock Magazine, and yes, it had a white tail panel and two white stripes. This publicity may have also led to a 350 powered Trans Am myth.

2. The other myth about a Carousel Red 1969 Trans Am could be traced back to the 1990's, when a company produced a 1/18 die-cast 1969 Trans Am (white/blue stripes). For some odd reason, the company then decided to release a Carousel Red/black stripes version. I ran into several die-cast dealers (not Pontiac guys) that stated that the orange Firebird die-cast was the "prototype" Trans Am. Not hard to understand, because all it took was one Pontiac guy stating they saw a photo of a Carousel Red 1969 Firebird with a rear wing (the photo posted above has been used in several books over the years), and presto, the myth began.

[Cammer-6]

[QUOTE=MikeNoun]Cammer-6, Engineering Car 9723 had nothing to do with the 1969 Trans Am. Engineering Car 9723 was built after 1969 Trans Am production had already begun. Also, Engineering Car 9723 never had a Trans Am hood or side extractors during its lifetime. The car was an engineering and syling excerise (test mule) to test the new 455 with RAIV heads, and had nothing to do with the 69 Trans Am package. Pontiac Engineering simply added the Trans Am rear wing, and then some black accents. I also have a photo of this car from May 1969 when Pontiac Engineering attached a large chin spoiler (painted black) similar in design to what Chevrolet used on their 1970 Z/28 (wrap around).
Mike not disputing what you say but I think the time frame of this is a little off.From a well known Firebird book"Before settling on the 400-cid V-8 for the Trans Am,Herb Adams' group tried a 455 in this coupe.Fender windsplits and ironing board were darker colors."
I know it dangerous to use third party as a reference tho.The whole idea of the Trans Am was to build enough cars to go racing and maybe sell a few extras.If you look at the first gen Z-28 program it was also on a small scale.

[1969T/A]

I have been told there may be more info on the "350 engined trans am" in this book
Does anyone have it?

[Grayson] Grayson, Stan, “Firebird Trans Am – A Story of Detroit,” Automobile Quarterly, Vol. XV, No. 3, Automobile Quarterly, Inc., Kurtztown, Penn., Third Quarter 1977.

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by Cammer-6

"Before settling on the 400-cid V-8 for the Trans Am,Herb Adams' group tried a 455 in this coupe.Fender windsplits and ironing board were darker colors."

Yep, I know which book this was in, however I believe that info was incorrect. The internet (and John Sawruk) have brought to light many fascinating facts since those 2 big Firebird books were written back in the early 1980's. They state "the ironing board was a darker color", but the ironing board wasn't darker on Engineering Car 9723. They just used an eyebrow style black line around the scoops. It was a later incarnation that had the black front spoiler and a blacked out ironing board hood.

As for this specific reference about trying the 455 in place of the 400, this doesn't make sense. The 1968 PFST project became the basis for the 1969 Trans Am. The original intent of the 1969 Trans Am was to use the new RAV 303 in order to go SCCA racing. When the RAV project was scrubbed for the 1969 model year, the engineers turned to the 400. All of this work was done in late 1968, and Pontiac still had the 428 at that time. If the engineers were playing around with anything, it would have been a 428 powered Trans Am. The only GM group with a 455 in 1968 was Oldsmobile.

According to Sawruk, Engineering Car 9723 was built in Spring 1969, long after 1969 Trans Am's were being sold. It was used as a mule car to test the 1970 455/RAIV combo, which they would have called the 455 H.O.

[Flowjoe]

Originally Posted by RA4auto

Quote from article written by Edward Morehouse:

"While Adams' PFST was a one-off. Jim Wangers had a half-dozen similar cars built for promotional purposes. These were all fitted with Pontiac's new 350cid V-8 and utilized the standard Firebird 400 hood with its twin forward facing scoops.

RA4auto, not picking on you just pulling your quote for reference.

If Jim Wangers is supposedly responsible for these "promotional" TA's fitted with 400 hoods and 350CID engines then why don't we ask him? He is alive and well. His office is like 7 miles from my home.

Here are two of his web sites:
http://www.geetotiger.com/

http://www.jimwangers.com/homepage.html

There are several PY members who know him very well.

Why guess and postulate when the source exists?

[1969T/A]

In the
[Grayson] Grayson, Stan, “Firebird Trans Am – A Story of Detroit,” Automobile Quarterly, Vol. XV, No. 3, Automobile Quarterly, Inc., Kurtztown, Penn., Third Quarter 1977.

Adams recalls that several V-8 "PFST" were built and sold.
Can anyone asked Jim Wangers if these were the "350 promo cars" with 400 hoods
he had built?
From the article it sounds like production of the 1969 trans am was ready by the time Adams finished his "PFST" protoype and later scrapped.

[rtanner]

ok ok i give! you win ! pontiac made 350 powered trans ams, special prototypes that are worth at least 10 times what any documented factory t/a is. and to make it that much better ive got a blue one with a blue interior 350 car w/ a 400 hood and a 4 speed behind my house. hey im thinking about selling it, that d80 on the cowl tag thats all the proof i need for it to be special prototype t/a right?

[1969T/A]

Originally Posted by rtanner

ok ok i give! you win ! pontiac made 350 powered trans ams, special prototypes that are worth at least 10 times what any documented factory t/a is. and to make it that much better ive got a blue one with a blue interior 350 car w/ a 400 hood and a 4 speed behind my house. hey im thinking about selling it, that d80 on the cowl tag thats all the proof i need for it to be special prototype t/a right?

Like, I said before not matter what kind of research you try to do
on the 1969 trans am. There's trolls like "Rtanner" that come out of the wood work.
With nothing more to add to the subject.

[rtanner]

ah im just yanking your chain honestly i hope you got some kind of special car. why dont you post some pictures sometime. and seriously good luck w your research any and all research is good for the hobby

[69 T/A]

1969T/A,
What size swaybar does your car have? Did it have Dual exhausts? Does it have the ride and handling package? Does it have a power steering cooler? What 3rd member does it have? So do you have the PHS billing sheet? Have you found a body broadcast sheet in the car? Just curious is all, I've spent many years researching many different cars, and restoring them as well. I have an affliction with Pontiacs however as it was my choice to own them.

[John V.]

Trying to get something straight.

1969T/A, I thought you were pursuing this as a purely academic exercise, trying to discover if there were a handful of 350 engined '69 Firebirds built with special equipment, including at the very least, regular 400 Firebird hoods.

Some here are now supposing you think you might actually own one of these cars.

Are you suggesting that your Lordstown Convert is possibly one of these special built "PFST" type 'birds?

That car was not built with the Ride & Handling Option so I assume that you are chasing this as a purely academic exercise, please confirm.

The Trans Am option package ostensibly included the Sales Code 621 Ride & Handling Option which pertained to Springs & Shocks. But, AFAIK, the Ride & Handling Option did not include the same springs & shocks for all applications. In other words, stiffer than standard springs may have been installed, but those springs likely varied depending on whether the car was OHC6, 350, or 400 among other things.

The TA Option may have had springs that were not specified on any other application. I am not knowledgeable about the TA but, for instance, the '64 GTO received standard springs not used on any other Lemans or Tempest. If the Sales Code 621 Heavy Duty Springs & Shocks were ordered on a non-GTO, the Springs & Shocks were upgraded to stiffer components. But for a GTO, only the stiffer Shocks were added, the Springs were the same as used without this option. The '64 GTO also got a standard front sway bar that was larger in dia. than used on the regular Tempest & Lemans. If the Special Equipment Option Sales Code 612 Quick Ratio Manual Steering (aka, Rally Kit) was ordered, the Tempest & Lemans was upgraded to this larger dia. front sway bar. A '64 GTO ordered with the Q.R. Manual Steering was still equipped with the regular GTO front bar, there was no stiffer bar available.

Does any '69 TA expert know how the TA suspension components compared to regular 400 Firebird suspension components? When the Ride & Handling option was ordered on a 400 Firebird, how did the components compare with the TA components?

In other words, was the TA suspension components the same as the R & H components for a regular 400 Firebird or was anything unique about the TA components (such as the unique '64 GTO springs) that were never installed on any other 'bird?

[1969T/A]

Originally Posted by John V.

Does any '69 TA expert know how the TA suspension components compared to regular 400 Firebird suspension components? When the Ride & Handling option was ordered on a 400 Firebird, how did the components compare with the TA components?

I'm not sure what the "ride and handling option" was made up of
On my car it has muti-leaf springs,disc brakes,and weird looking spiral shocks.
That I have never seen before. I don't know if that helps.

[einstein]

Originally Posted by John V.

Does any '69 TA expert know how the TA suspension components compared to regular 400 Firebird suspension components? When the Ride & Handling option was ordered on a 400 Firebird, how did the components compare with the TA components?

A simple look at the spring chart in the Parts Illustrations Manual will answer your question. Mine is unavailable for that exercise at present.