[Transamric]

Some interesting claims being made about this one. Documented by "Tim" Mattison??
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...SS%3AUS%3A1123
WHADDAYA THINK??

[1969 Ram Air]

That car is fairly loaded with options. I'm not sure how much the "auto show" label helps it. Two tachs? The PHS says rally gauges with clock. I wonder why the seller says the car was built at the Loraine Michigan GTO plant? The seller makes a lot of claims in that ebay ad.

[keith k]

Not sure about all the claims, but it wasn't your average car... that's for sure.

Even has Instant-Aire.

[guccieng]

i don't see the hood tach or the underhood lamp. with that ghetto antenna, i seriously wonder what the seller's up to.

[Transamric]

One of the claims made is the car was built with both tachs. Yet the PHS shows only the hood tach. IMO, the only way a FB could have been built with both tachs would be an assembly line error.

[trmjr1]

Wasn't this car on eBay some time back and was pulle or something? This is not the first time this car has been discussed here.

[MikeNoun]

When I saw the reference to "two tachs", and a "show car", I thought it was going to be the car shown in the factory brochure that had two hood tach nacelles.

The invoice does show "Display" at the bottom of the left column, and it looks like the hand written memo car distribution bulletin 212828, dated 12-2-69, with a reference "per zone letter to TM (territory manager?) George Stephens.

Definitely a loaded car, probably going to the car show circuit, but need further documentation.

Look at the MSRP. You can see easily see why the 1969 Firebird 400's and 1969 Trans Am's were so rare. This one comes in at $4223.34, and even though it's technically "loaded", it still doesn't even have a Ram Air engine (let alone a RAIV), a vinyl top, or heck, even a/c! You could easily get one of these regular Firebird 400 cars to sticker over $5000 with a few more options, or as a convertible.

[Keith Seymore]

I'm skeptical.

Most of the show cars we've seen thus far have multilple PHS invoices, usually being delivered somewhere within the corporation (rather than a dealership).

Also, I don't know when the LA show was held for the '69 models but it is held in December these days*. Per the PHS, building a car in December for a December show seems a bit late to me. Edit: actually the 12-2-69 handwritten note would be taking place during the 1970 model year, more than a year later than you would want to build a show car.

Lastly, if there was a picture of it on display in LA then I'd be more convinced, but not sure how you would recognize it since the paint scheme seems kinda funky now.

Posting the documentation by "Tim" Mattison would certainly help, too.

I never say "never" but don't like the smell of this one.

My $0.02 -

K

*We were in LA last week, December of 2009, with our 2010 model year vehicles.

[MikeNoun]

Keith, this car actually did go through PMD engineering. Check the lower right on the invoice...Zone 997.

I believe the display cars (or show cars) were sent to engineering first so they could correct body panel fit and door gaps, and (especially on the 69 Firebirds) adjust and align all those front end pieces. The receiving dealer (Royal Pontiac, Los Angeles) was probably just the dealer the car was shipped to, then that dealer delivered it to the Zone Office, or perhaps took this car (with Pontiac involved of course) to the auto show(s). Now whether this was in the actual L.A. Auto Show, who knows. We'd need to see pictures and further proof.

The hand-written "December 2nd 1969" may be plausible, because the 1970 Firebirds weren't out yet, so Pontiac may still have been displaying the 1969 Firebirds that late in the calendar year. My guess is that the car was built in March 1969, delivered to the California dealership in April 1969, used in some auto shows, then in December 1969 was purchased by someone at a discount (hence the "Special Price Car" reference).

Regardless, the car needs a LOT of work. Anyone know what the last line "CC 2580" line means?

[Transamric]

As Lordstown OH. 223379U109398, it would have been built 10-E. So, the fifth week of Oct. '68, not '69. Since it didn't ship out until 3/24/69, it must have undergone a lot of special prep work, or simply was stored somewhere "on ignore" until the time came to special prep it. I wish we knew more about the details on this one. Could be an interesting history. It'd be more interesting if it'd been a Ram Air car.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Keith, this car actually did go through PMD engineering. Check the lower right on the invoice...Zone 997.

I believe the display cars (or show cars) were sent to engineering first so they could correct body panel fit and door gaps, and (especially on the 69 Firebirds) adjust and align all those front end pieces. The receiving dealer (Royal Pontiac, Los Angeles) was probably just the dealer the car was shipped to, then that dealer delivered it to the Zone Office, or perhaps took this car (with Pontiac involved of course) to the auto show(s). Now whether this was in the actual L.A. Auto Show, who knows. We'd need to see pictures and further proof.

The hand-written "December 2nd 1969" may be plausible, because the 1970 Firebirds weren't out yet, so Pontiac may still have been displaying the 1969 Firebirds that late in the calendar year. My guess is that the car was built in March 1969, delivered to the California dealership in April 1969, used in some auto shows, then in December 1969 was purchased by someone at a discount (hence the "Special Price Car" reference).

Regardless, the car needs a LOT of work. Anyone know what the last line "CC 2580" line means?

Thanks Mike. I noticed that this morning.

BTW - as far as show car prep: we still do that, meaning send the cars off property for a special round of "fluffing and puffing". These days, show cars are prepped by a special group at the Milford Proving Ground.

In fact, some of our Volt prototypes were built originally without paint and sent out to MPG in primer, and with the windshield/backglass duct taped in place, to help facilitate the re-painting process.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Regardless, the car needs a LOT of work. Anyone know what the last line "CC 2580" line means?

Just speculating, but "CC" could stand for "Company Car", and the 2580 an identification number.

K

[Kurt S]

That timeline is confusing to me.
Build Oct 68.
Invoiced March 69. (From what I've seen, this is when they took the hit on their $$ books.)
Sold with a large $$ adjustment Dec 69.

Anyone ask to see the trim tag?

[Transamric]

No reply on Trim Tag pic. Anyone else have any success?

[John V.]

Didn't pick up on this thread til just now. Ric, I agree this was a late Oct. '68 build from Lordstown. It was originally assigned to 35-997 which is believed to indicate PMD Engineering.

I'm not sure if the "Show Car" idea is something that is indisputable, or perhaps an interpretation that Jim Mattison has deduced on his own. As far as this car is concerned, I'm not sure what basis J.M. would have used to surmise LA Auto Show usage. Perhaps somebody can invite Jim in here to clarify. For all we know, Jim may have opined that it COULD have been a Show Car, not that it for SURE was.

By my reckoning, this car was in the possession of PMD until it was sold to Royal Pontiac on or about March 24, 1969. My interpretation of the "CC" is exactly as Keith suggested. This is seen frequently enough and in some cases, very clearly indicated as a factory "Company Car". Meaning, owned by PMD, whether used by some Exec in Pontiac, Mich or one of the Sales Zone Offices, or if used for some other PMD purpose, perhaps including usage as a Show Car. The 2580 presumably an "asset no." that allowed PMD to keep track of the vehicle while they possessed it.

"Display" certainly seems to convey a particular usage. But perhaps this suggests a car that was "displayed" at one of the Plants or at PMD during the Model Year. Maybe even the Zone Sales offices "displayed" vehicles?

It isn't even clear that the car would have been "displayed" in Calif. prior to the sale to Royal of North Hollywood. It is noteworthy that this Dealer was invloved in procuring the cars used on TV & in movies, for example, the Two Lane Blacktop GTO and the I Dream of Jeannie cars came by way of Royal in North Hollywood.

Sure, the car could have been displayed at the LA Auto Show and elsewhere prior to being sold to Royal. But I don't see how that could be deduced from this documentation. Although it was pretty common for such cars to be sold "locally", so most likely it WAS in Calif. at the time Royal purchased it.

The strange thing is what happened after Royal was invoiced for the car in March, as noted by the handwritten stuff.

CMD by my interpretation means "Credit Memo Dealer". This is a credit issued to the Dealer, often to reimburse the Dealer for items indicated on an Invoice that were omitted from the build. Example, a "CMD" memo would be generated for a car that was supposed to be built with the Custom Steering Wheel and was invoiced accordingly but got a standard wheel instead. The Dealer would be credited for the dollar difference.

In this case, it looks like the Dealer was credited for $1,093.92 plus an extra $100 for "handling". A memo written by the Zone Office to George Stephens documented the circumstances and the amounts. It would be useful to know who George Stephens was and what his title/responsibility was. I don't suppose it is the same George Stephens who is or was recently on the GM Board of Directors.

In any event, the CMD was dated 12/2/69, well after Royal purchased the car. Since the car was already substantially discounted at the time Royal purchased it, seems to me that it would have been odd for Royal to have been given a credit so many months later. Perhaps the car was damaged or in some way not in the condition originally represented when Royal purchased it and it took several months before they "settled" with PMD for this credit.

I cannot imagine that PMD, having invoiced Royal for the car in March, would have controlled the usage of the car after that point, and surely, they were not crediting Royal for such control and usage in Dec. I'd guess the Dec. Credit was issued to recompense Royal based on something having been wrong with the car.

Ric, I also agree, no way the car would have been built with both tachs except by error (and even then, I'm not sure it was even possible to make that mistake). The Invoice is clear, the Rally Gauges & Clock (Sales Code 484) was invoiced along with the Hood Mounted Tach (Sales Code 471). The Rally Gauge Cluster w/ Instrument Panel Tach was Sales Code 444. Among other options that you couldn't have with this Option was the Hood Tach Option.

The Invoice points to an out of the ordinary early history, but unless I miss my guess, whatever the early usage was, it can't be discerned from the Invoice and without specific documentation, IMO, the story is just speculation and adds nothing to the value of the car.

I'd be curious to know if Jim Mattison has any insights to add.

[Kurt S]

John,
I agree with most of what you are saying.

Looks like they got a discount of $300 when they were invoiced in March.
But then it was adjusted again, as a Special Price Car, in December. That $1200 adjustment is huge, seeing that the dealer cost was only $3100.

Originally Posted by John V.

I cannot imagine that PMD, having invoiced Royal for the car in March, would have controlled the usage of the car after that point, and surely, they were not crediting Royal for such control and usage in Dec. I'd guess the Dec. Credit was issued to recompense Royal based on something having been wrong with the car.

I couldn't either. Til I went thru all the numbers and compared it to other billing histories. But it sure looks like the dealer got a smoking deal on that car for a reason. And the only thing that makes sense is that the dealer was doing something for PMD. Maybe that car was not saleable til December cause it was being used for something.....
If a car had something wrong with it that was worth $1200, they would have totalled the car. Or it would have been fixed via the warranty channels. I can only see that $$ if the dealer had to sell a year old+ car with the new 70 models coming soon.
There is some precendent. There was a convertible on ebay. The PHS showed that it wasn't invoiced until Feb 70 and they took 1700 off the price!

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Kurt S

I couldn't either. Til I went thru all the numbers and compared it to other billing histories. But it sure looks like the dealer got a smoking deal on that car for a reason. And the only thing that makes sense is that the dealer was doing something for PMD. Maybe that car was not saleable til December cause it was being used for something.....

I agree, and I agree that there is precedence for doing "smoking" deals.

There is a Medium Duty GMC truck in the Heritage Center collection. The original GM dealer had loaned the truck for use in a (unreleased) James Garner film, in which the truck got shot full of bullet holes (!).

Rather than having the dealer fix the truck and put it back on the lot, GM simply bought it outright and fixed it up themselves. That's why it is now in the collection, in (over) restored condition.

K

[John V.]

Kurt & Keith, I'm not disagreeing with you guys.

The Truck story is curious. It wasn't at all unusual for an automaker to provide vehicles for TV shows for "promotional considerations". I assume that when this was done, the vehicles were owned by the manufacturer. In the case of the Truck, it sounds like the Dealer owned it but somehow GM was compelled to buy it back? Maybe there was a "standard" deal where the cars were furnished to the studio by a local Hollywood dealer (Royal in the case of PMD) and the Dealer got paid a fee to provide the cars, PMD got recognition for the "promotional considerations", and the Dealer got the cars back in reasonably good condition that he could still sell at a profit. Perhaps the Contract was such that any unreasonable damage was the automaker's responsibility to repair to make the Dealer whole, since otherwise the Dealer risked having his car devalued beyond what the fee was worth.

That could explain the Truck, it was so damaged that GM simply bought it back to make the Dealer whole.

I don't think this 'bird was likely furnished to a Hollywood studio. Whatever usage PMD put it to between November when it was built and March when Royal bought it, it seems to have been in the control of PMD Engineering ("zone" 35).

The December date of the final credit might be misleading.

CMD's were often generated weeks after the car was built. So even for a run of the mill credit for an add/delete change that had occurred during final assembly, the date associated with the CMD could be 3-4 weeks after final assembly.

Granted, this CMD date is 8 months after the car was invoiced to Royal. So it is conceivable that you are correct, perhaps PMD had Royal put the car to some agreed use and at the end, PMD "released" it and paid off Royal with the big credit. But why would Royal buy the car in March only to have PMD dictate the usage for the next 8 months, what would have been in it for Royal after paying for the car? I can't think of a good explanation.

What I had suggested was that Royal acquired the car in March and upon delivery, they discovered that the car was not as pristine as expected. Maybe Engineering had installed some special features/options that were not production while they exhibited/displayed the car in order to gauge consumer response and then ripped these things out prior to selling the car off, doing damage in the process that was not repaired. Royal then complained to the Zone Manager and the negotiations began until they settled on the credit issued months later.

Whatever the real story, I still think it is lost to history, so the bottom line is, it has no impact on the value of the car today.

Kurt, that ebay convert was surely a used company car like this one. I also documented a Special Price '69 coupe that was Invoiced 3/31/70 (car was built Nov. '68 at Lordstown and was marked as Eng. Dev., also showed 35 997 as the Shipped To). But I have also uncovered numerous Zone Stock inventory 'birds that were invoiced in February '70. I have concluded that these unused cars, some that had been sitting in Zone Stock inventory for several months, were finally sold when PMD conducted a "fire sale" when the '70 'birds went on sale. PMD invoiced over 2000 '69 units in Feb. '70 from what I can make of the Invoice ID nos. and I'd bet most or all of the new units sold in Feb. '70 were '69 'birds (all new '70 Pontiacs had their own Invoice ID set not intermingled with sales of new '69s).

Another thought just occurred to me. Maybe Royal had trouble selling this 'bird and still had it in Dec., 8 months after putting it on their lot. Then PMD started unloading its supply of company cars and taking far less for 'birds than Royal had to pay for this one back in March. Perhaps the Zone Office cut them a break and issued them a credit in line with what PMD was accepting as Special Prices for similar Company Cars that were being offered up in Nov/Dec? I think I know the convert you mention, it was originally stickered above $5000 and sold to the dealer in Feb 70 at the Special Price of $2225. So negotiating this coupe down to $1900 would not have been that outrageous and may have helped Royal get out from under a dog at a time when selling any '69 'bird had become a challenge with the freshly redesigned 2nd gen set to make its debut.

Take your pick, any story could be plausible. None add anything to the value today without documentation of something unusually special.

[MikeNoun]

Hmmmm...could this just simply be a road test car? The "DISPLAY" line, and the fact it was sent to engineering (35 997) may just be so that engineering could align panels, straighten out that nose, body panel gaps, take care of any flaws in the paint, etc. I seem to recall that in the road test of the Palladium Silver prototype 1969 Trans Am (Hot Rod Magazine) that the writer mentioned that the front end, body panel gaps, etc. were perfect, and they knew that the car had some "special preparation". I believe there was another road test of a 1968 GTO where the writers noticed the paint was flawless, the fit an finish were superb, and they too suspected the car went through special prep.

But the "DISPLAY" line and the fact it went through Zone 35 997 I think is fascinating. I've seen some other invoices for actual engineering cars, and they have a special line for "ENG DEV", but they do not have the "DISPLAY" line. My guess is that it was either 1) road test car, 2) used in one of the many 1969 auto shows that year, 3) used for promotional purposes in and around Hollywood, as Royal Pontiac California was the dealership used for such cars.

[Transamric]

Mike, you beat me to the punch here. Just this morning I was wondering if there was a possibility this Sliver FB 400 could be the "prototype" Trans Am featured in that Hot Rod magazine article. If the car still has it's born with trunk lid, it'd be fascinating to have a look inside it for air foil holes!