[John V.]

Greg, I think I see your EUN at John Wallace's site.

Since I want to be clear, you do mean 088000 range? The '68 EUNs are always 6 digit, leading 0s used for EUNs under 100000.

If so, I think you misremembered your cast dates.

Your engine was assembled most likely in September and if I'm correct about the listing at John Wallace's site, your block cast date is mid August!

October/November castings would have been produced way too late to be on an EUN as early as 088000.

Even today, lots of Pontiac guys think the EUN is supposed to match to the VIN. I hope you paid based on it being "numbers matching", didn't hose the guy just because he didn't know what he had!!!

[pacekar]

I have also bought some Pontiacs that had the original motors that the sellers didn't know where to look also.

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by John V.

Greg, I think I see your EUN at John Wallace's site.

Very interesting. Never thought to look for it anywhere.

Originally Posted by John V.

Since I want to be clear, you do mean 088000 range? The '68 EUNs are always 6 digit, leading 0s used for EUNs under 100000.

If so, I think you misremembered your cast dates.

Your engine was assembled most likely in September and if I'm correct about the listing at John Wallace's site, your block cast date is mid August!

October/November castings would have been produced way too late to be on an EUN as early as 088000.

Yes, 088000. It's been years since I looked and I will recheck the codes. I think you are right that it could very well have been August for the block and October for the heads. I will check again when I get a minute. Did they use the letter 'I' in '68? I'm thinking that they did.

Even today, lots of Pontiac guys think the EUN is supposed to match to the VIN. I hope you paid based on it being "numbers matching", didn't hose the guy just because he didn't know what he had!!!

I wouldn't say 'hosed' him but I got it probably a bit cheaper since it didn't have those magic words...'numbers matching'... Uh oh, here we go again with the semantics.

[John V.]

Yes, the foundry used "I" for September on cast iron parts every year.

Will be interesting if the heads have October date codes. After I posted yesterday, I thought about it some more, realized I don't have enough '70 EUN data to be sure 088000 was assembled before October.

So will be interesting to find out about the date codes on the heads. Might be early October.

[johnta1]

realized I don't have enough '70 EUN data to be sure 088000 was assembled before October.

You mean 1968?
(think it's a 68 Greg's talking about?)

[Greg Reid]

That's right John, it is a '68.
Ok John V., you nailed it. The block is coded H167..I should have remembered that as it's one day before my 9th b'day.
The heads are strange. One is coded I077 and the other is J067..So, one is early October and the other early September.
I'm not at all sure that one or both of the heads haven't been changed at some point. I know the intake manifold is a '69 casting. Definitely not original... Who knows why. Stripped threads or a broken bolt perhaps back when you could get these things in any junkyard.

By the way, I don't think there's any risk in posting the EUN? ... 088529
So, bottom line, I have a correctly stamped block that was cast mid August '67, that went into a car built in early May '68. That's over 8 months.

PS- The EUN is listed on John's website. Perhaps I entered it years ago? I tend to forget things nowadays....lol

[johnta1]

I think you were one of the first ones to send in a submission.
(quite a few years ago now)



But you gave H187 as the date code?
(not H167)

[johnta1]

I checked again, you sent another submission with the H167 correction.

[Greg Reid]

If I could only remember to take my Ginkgo Biloba.
I probably submitted it with the idea that it was one day after my b'day when in actuality, it should have been one day before.

[John V.]

Ha! The reason I said '70 was because I was working on a '70 question at the same time. Crossed myself up.

Brain cramp. Nothing to do with getting old either!

My dad, in denying his advancing years explained that when you screw up when you are young, nobody thinks anything of it. When you get old, they tell you you're getting senile.

Don't believe it, I've been screwing up all my life. QED, nothing to do with getting old. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

So, to correct myself, I realized I didn't have enough '68 EUN data to be sure 088000 was assembled before October.

Greg, J067 might be just early enough. If you could find enough EUNs close to yours, you could probably figure it out for sure. For now, I would accept it.

[thews]

Originally Posted by The Boss

Thews

Your 69 350HO WN may be "Correct" but not "Numbers Matching".

A 1969 Firebird 350HO block with a WN code is numbers matching for a stick car. I've heard your so-called "comical" retorts, but it's just based on your opinion. Without data, it's just another opinion. A 1970 Hemi Cuda with a NOM correctly coded 426 is "numbers matching" (the part numbers match). A 1969 350 Firebird with a 1969 Lemans 350HO block is not.

Originally Posted by The Boss

Just like the XW I have for my RA II 68 GTO - it is correct, but not numbers matching because it has a different VIN on the front of the block than the one on my car.

That's your opinion. If your car came with the correctly coded stamp and date codes, the part is correct and is numbers matching IMO.

Originally Posted by The Boss

Also the WC I have for my 71 455HO 4spd GTO Convertible which in this case HAS NO VIN on the front of the block is still just CORRECT & NOT NUMBERS MATCHING since it is not the block it was born with, and I'm not going to try to convince people otherwise.

You don't have to convince them. The caveat of "NOM" explains it all. If the part is correct, those numbers match.

Originally Posted by The Boss

....and you can stop trying to convince us that yours is numbers matching too.

Funny how you have to send the battle cry of "us" to make your supposed point as the circle jerk wagons are called to back you up. Parts have numbers... block codes and date codes. If your opinion on what numbers matching requires that every part on the car is original to it, then so what. For those of us that are into this hobby to bring back these amazing machines, the numbers that went into building it are factory coded. My WN block is numbers matching, as are your blocks, if the car came with the block code. If you want to segue with "numbers correct" then have at it. The implied deception is based upon the definition, which all of you comical high-fivers have failed to back up. What data do you have to substantiate your supposed point based on your opinion of what "numbers matching" is defined by?

[A Schab]

Does this mean that since the front and rear plates match on my T/A I can say that it's matching numbers from one end to the other?

[Bertone]

Originally Posted by thews

What data do you have to substantiate your supposed point based on your opinion of what "numbers matching" is defined by?

It is called mathematical laws. The only number that matches 123 is 123.

Your car has matching codes (or letters) but your number do not match.

[Bet Winner]

http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?ta...ing-definition

A couple of quotes from this attorney:

"The phrase “numbers matching” was coined an untold number of years ago to describe a vehicle which retained its original driveline (i.e. the driveline that was installed into the vehicle during its initial assembly at its manufacturer’s plant). Specifically and most important in this definition is the engine; as this is the single most important aspect of a vehicle’s originality. "

"Numbers Matching means ORIGINAL; the phrase and the meaning of “numbers matching” have never parted company. Numbers matching still means, as it always has, that the engine, transmission and rear axle are original to that particular vehicle. For the phrase to have any other meaning would render it flawed and unnecessary."

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by John V.

Greg, J067 might be just early enough. If you could find enough EUNs close to yours, you could probably figure it out for sure. For now, I would accept it.

I'm not really too awfully concerned with whether they are original to the car (the heads that is). I do believe I have one of those anomalies regarding the space between the car's orginal block casting (which I do believe is legit) and the build date of the car. So, now I can ammend that to 8.5 months!

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by Bet Winner

http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?ta...ing-definition

A couple of quotes from this attorney:

"The phrase “numbers matching” was coined an untold number of years ago to describe a vehicle which retained its original driveline (i.e. the driveline that was installed into the vehicle during its initial assembly at its manufacturer’s plant). Specifically and most important in this definition is the engine; as this is the single most important aspect of a vehicle’s originality. "

"Numbers Matching means ORIGINAL; the phrase and the meaning of “numbers matching” have never parted company. Numbers matching still means, as it always has, that the engine, transmission and rear axle are original to that particular vehicle. For the phrase to have any other meaning would render it flawed and unnecessary."

I don't care if you had a quote from Jesus Christ. I've been around these forums long enough to recognize the traits displayed in this thread... You are NOT going to convince the guy.
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

[The Boss]

What color is the sky in your world thews?

[thews]

Originally Posted by The Boss

What color is the sky in your world thews?

You guys just don't get it. I don't give a rat's ass if your collective shots equate to some sort of point, because it's based on your opinion. Pontiac parts have part numbers. Those of you who went out of the way to find the exact replacement parts (as I did) know how hard this is. You can never replace an original drivetrain, but it has to come from an original car. If all the numbers match except the carb, by your definition it equates to a non "numbers matching" car, which is a load. A 70 TA block with the correct stamp and date code is "numbers matching" because that's its part numbers. Keep injecting your opinion, but you have all failed to define the line, and that's because it's based on your opinion... period.

You covered wagon lemmings need to get a life, because you're dead wrong. Show me the money... give a link that defines this definitively, and I'll give you a link that disagrees with it. Huddle up circle-jerk :highfivers:... because you are dead wrong. Parts have numbers. "Numbers matching" mean the parts match.

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by thews

My 69 350 HO block (not original to the car) has a date code of Oct 28 (J028). I have 3 sets of #48 heads and the best pair has a date code of early December (L038), but I do have a set of heads built in October. The car was delivered in late January of 69. Is the date code on the block close enough to be considered "numbers matching"? Would I be better off having the head date codes match the block, or should I use the early December heads?

For those out there with numbers matching cars, what's the time frame for you date codes WRT the build date?

I have a question for you thews...and this is a sincere question, not trying to pin you down or bird dog you...I would actually like to know-
If you have that little regard or respect for the knowledge of the people on this site, why on earth did you ask the question in the first place? It seems you already have all of the answers for yourself.
It really reminds me of the old joke about the parents who watched their son performing in the marching band..."Look Ma, ever' one of them is out of step except Jr."

[Bertone]

thews, In post number 10, you state a car that has the drivetrain that came with the car is a "born with" term.

So why don't you just state you have a "non born with numbers matching" car. That way you don't lead people the wrong way with your "numbers matching" opinion.