[67drake]

I found a foreclosed property that my wife and I have been through a few times now. This house is about 100 years old. I grew up in old house ,and have owned one,so I have no problem with creaky or uneven hardwood floors,cracked plaster,ect. It goes with the territory. This one puzzles me though.
This house is an old "foursquare" so it's 2 floors high,walk up attic,full basement,with a brick chimney in the very middle. If you look at the main timbers in the basement (I'm guessing 8x8's) that run through the center of the house,there is a noticeable sag,maybe 3 inches from chimney to the outer wall. No biggie.
What has me puzzled is that the 1st floor pitches AWAY from the chimney area. A marble rolls toward the outer walls if put on the floor. The 2nd floor,you don't need a marble,you can feel the pitch,so it's even worse up there. Another thing is that the old original baseboard trim and even the trim on the bottoms of the doorways have a gap in all areas around the center chimney. So the main timber in basement DROPS toward the house center,floors pitch UP,trim pitches up even more that the floors.
There is fresh drywall around the posts that support the main timber in the basement,so I can't tell,but I suspect they may have tried repairs,but no way to confirm this. Even if they had,it still makes no sense to me.
Any ideas what's going on here?

I took pics if it helps,but not as clear as I thought they would be.
Thanks!

[The Boss]

So the high point on each floor is in the center? at the Chimney? Did I read that correctly?

If that's the case - then the chimney mass is likely used for structural support with beams let into it on each floor. The chimney won't shrink in height over time, but your sills on the outside foundation may have rotted or been replaced with smaller members. Check those first.

It's not hard to jack a house and level it out, just takes the right tools and some time.

[arbys]

Originally Posted by The Boss

but your sills on the outside foundation may have rotted or been replaced with smaller members. Check those first.

I would check that out or possible foundation settling.

[67drake]

Center support beam in basement,notice the cracks and hard to tell from this photo but it's sagging in the middle here. The chimney is right behind this drywall


Looks like a newer concrete floor. Also it looks like they cut away this strip in the floor. The main beam that sags is directly above this long cut in the floor. You can see the corner of the chimney behind this wall.


Note the gap between the baseboard and floor on the 1st floor.. The chimney is that little angle coming out from the wall. There is even a gap to the left of the doorway in this pic.

[67drake]

Thanks Boss.
You are correct. The chimney is the high point. Why don't the floor and trim stay together though? Looks like the baseboards/doorways moved independently from the floor?

[The Boss]

The house is probably balloon framed where the studs go all the way up through the house. since the floor is somewhat independent of the walls they can separate. The lath & plaster will fight to keep the walls straight while the floor drops away.

I would take down that sheetrock in the basement first and see what they are hiding.

[PonchoV8]

Nice woodwork. I know if you lift the floors too quickly you will probably start cracking plaster. I was advised to only move everything 1/4" per month.

[Ed Fitzgerald]

What is the house??? Brick veneer, solid brick, balloon frame or dimensional lumber (stick frame). I had the same problem with my house when we moved in in 1989. My house was a red brick veneer stick frame (dimensional lumber) storey and a half. I started to jack the floors and was having some success. However when you level the floors it will cause problems somewhere else. Most are minor and can be lived with. I at the time didn't have the patience I do now so one friday afternoon I backed the tandem dumptruck up to the upstairs window and gutted the upstairs. We then gutted the whole house and I took a chain saw and took out all the floors. By that evening you could look from the basement to the roof. That started a full renovation that would make "flip this house pale by design". As was said by Poncho you can only bring the house back up level at a slow pace. This house settled over a 100 yr period and if you attempt to do it too quickly it will buckle the hardwood flooring. The penny nails are forgiving as they are not ardochs. Now after all this we need to know the outside covering of the house, ie brick, shiplap. A solid brick house will have every 7-8 rows a brick turned sideways to tie the 2 rows of brick together. A balloon frame will have all the windows stacked on top of each other ie they will be in the same spot on each floor over each other. I concur with the Boss that you could have a rotted sill plate but it is also possible that the floor joists are relaxing on the nails on the outside walls. The reason for this is the static loads (hutches, dressers) that are placed along the outside wall. whereas in the center of the house the fireplace would have been built after the outside walls and the floor joists are morticed into the fireplace brick and not prone to settle as much. Also there is no static load placed next to the fireplace for obvious reasons. Ed

[67drake]

I believe 4 squares were balloon frame,but I'm no expert in this area. Here are a few outside pics if it helps. It still has original wood siding.



Thanks for all the help so far guys. I don't know that much about home construction. The house is a foreclosure so I can't really take the drywall down in the basement. It would be sold "as is" by the bank. It's selling for a song and is a beautiful house (along with an acre of land and 2 different 3 car garages!) so I want to at least find out about the issues. Problem is that the house is over 3 hours away,so going to check out things can only be done on the weekend.

Poncho,you like woodwork? Check this place out-





It's not one of those old houses that somebody went through and botched everything up and put cheap Pergo floors and Menards trim in. ALL the hardwood floors and trim is in place,and unpainted.

[The Boss]

Beautiful house! What does a house like that normally sell for in your area? How cheap can you get it for?

Where exactly in the house are the locations where the floor has dropped away from the walls?

[67drake]

Originally Posted by The Boss

Beautiful house! What does a house like that normally sell for in your area? How cheap can you get it for?

Where exactly in the house are the locations where the floor has dropped away from the walls?

Thanks.
Well,I couldn't afford what it would sell for in my area,I'm in a heavily populated area between Milwaukee and Chicago. This house is out in the sticks close to the Mississippi river by LaCross WI in a small town of 600. My wife and I plan to move out that way in 2 years.
The house last sold for 189K in 04'. Current assessed value is 149K,bank is asking 84K,and it's been on the market since November,so I could probably get it in the 70's. All the electrical is modern,it even has 220 in the garages for my compressor. All plumbing is redone too,roof is about 4 years old. If you saw the kitchen,your wife would have orgasms. boiler and HW heater 5 years old,and modern bathrooms.That's why I don't mind putting some work into the place if I need to,but I just want to make sure I know what I'm getting into.

The only place where the baseboards and trim are away from the floors are 8 ft. in either direction from where the chimney is. The 2nd floor also has the floor sloping away from the chimney,but the trim does not have the big gap in it.

[67drake]

So as far as the sagging beam in the basement. I assume this is not attached to the chimney then? What would happen if it were leveled? Wouldn't the floors slant even more?

[getmygoat]

Maybe get a professional to give an estimate on fixing it? This will give you a maximum cost... might be able to build it into the offer - will help the bank beurocrats sell your offer internally if they can show their bosses the estimate. Especially if its been on the market for a while.

Beautiful house. Nothing even close to that around here.

[Kurt Zimmerman]

The sagging could be anything. The chimney may or may not be original to the house, in fact, it may be hard to tell where old ends and newer begins.

Our 130 year old farmhouse has the stone foundation, but it only went to the frost line. The basement was later dug out, leaving 3 feet around the perimeter undisturbed. Those foundations eventually settled. There was also an addition put on (like yours) in the 40's, and it moved all over the place after it was done.

We also had an archway cut out that was supporting an upper floor, resulting in sagging.

Your roof lines look good, so you might want to simply support the beams in the basement with jack posts, and slowly raise them over time, to prevent future sagging.

Anything else is going to cost lots of money that you may never get back out of the house.

Kurt

[carcrazy]

You might want to spend $300 or so and get a structural PE to take a look at it!

[Ed Fitzgerald]

From the new pictures you have provided my guess would be 1) In the 2nd set of pictures the first pictures shows that there is still sagging towards the center of the house. 2) the roof lines have no bellying from end to end on the ridgeline of the roof. 3) the second floor will be crowned as much as the 1st floor because in behind that new drywall you will find that the main beam has been shored up and that will transfer the high spot or crown to the 2nd floor. Now look at your 1st pictures of the basement where the chimney is I see a seam in the floor joist. Is the joist a laminated double or triple beam??? Easy way to tell how much crown they put on the beam. Take a string line and string it from side of the basement to the other. Take each end and wrap them around a 2x4 block of wood. Pull the string tight and nail it to the bottom side of the beam. Now if this beam were level you would have a string line running from one side of the basement to the other on the underside of the beam that is exactly even in the middle (say for argument sake 2").So being that it is crowned in the middle you will have 2+. You definitely have a balloon frame and it looks like to me they poured some self levelling cement in the basement to tidy up the floors. The cuts you talk of look to me to be a rotted doorsill plate or 2x6 that was removed after the concrete was poured. Looks like a good house for the money that needs some TLC. Ed

[The Boss]

There's a garage? How big!

Damn! Around here 70k is a car!

[Txbobcat]

I Have 2 or 3 100 plus year old houses that I rent. They have a lot of character. I would also get 3 bids and present the highest to the loan company with the contract. Sounds like you have room to grow and Garage space.

[rohrt]

We had a guy buy my grandparents house that was a big 4 square like this. He had remodeled a similar house before and did the same thing to my grandparents house.

The first thing he did was leveling everything out. He used a long clear tube that he filled with colored water and measured the level at the walls. Once he determined the slope in inches out came the hydraulic jacks and screw jacks. Part of the house had a craw space and the other parts had a basement. From what I remember the jacking up process was a slow process done a little at a time.

That said the house didn't have the gaps like you show. May be best to get advice from a pro like was advised above.

[67drake]

Originally Posted by The Boss

There's a garage? How big!

Damn! Around here 70k is a car!

Yup. There is a 3 1/2 car garage just behind the house,it looks to be only about 10 years old or so. It has 220 already in it and gas lines. Looks like they had a furnace on the wall already,furnace is gone though. There is a second older 3 car garage about 200 ft. away from the house. This one has a walk up loft too. There is a third,but it is more of a glorified storage shed. It has a overhead door,but it looks more like you would keep your riding mower in it.