[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Well Brian,

They just wrote an article I guess (didnt read it myself) in Hemmings that there are now more documented 427/435HP Corvettes than Chevrolet actually built. It all starts with a VIN. The restorers are so good, they cant tell the difference between the real and the clones.

Brian, this guy has gone to dinner with Bill Ford. The Ford racing guys over the years are good friends of his. He has been a consultant to the auto industry for 30 years like I have. We have walked in similar circles over years, but met racing NHRA. He has a 289 4barrel SS Mustang with a 490 cfm carb that goes well into the 10's.

Yes he could be pulling me, but I dont think so. Like I said, he needs no one to validate him unless you are willing to put up the serious cash.

Lynn

[necdb3]

He wouldn't even need to post the Vin seq number. Just have him post the part of the vin with the "X" in it

[77 Canamman]

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

Yes he could be pulling me, but I dont think so.

Lynn

Then there would be no harm in his showing you the VIN number, and you sending it off to PHS to see what comes back would there. You trust him...I trust you.

Give me your address and I'll send you the $35 for the PHS info on the stipulation that you will post it publicly on this board. If the car truly did exist, I think it's very important to verify and document it. You can black out the sequence number of the cars VIN if your SS-Ford buddy wishes to conceal the full VIN for whatever reason, but I want to see every digit up to those last 6 digits, and I want to see what options were on it.

Surely your friend can appreciate the importance of documenting such a rare piece of automotive history and sharing it with the public? I'll await your answer.

[LUST01]

I agree with Brian, get the phs documents, black out the seq number part of the vin and post it. Most people that I know that own or have owned a rare car usually have no problem of sharing info about it. Thats how you learn about these rare cars. I used to think there was no 1972 455 HO LeMans GT's because some factory sales litature said the endura option was not available on GT's which was a required option on 455 HO cars in 1972. Several members of this forum, Forest, Lloyd, PB, to name a few, posted phs documents and pictures that proved otherwise. I now have the knowledge that these cars existed because these people enjoy to share info on this forum so the hobby can grow and be well informed. If people have a problem sharing info in this hobby, it is a good sign that they are full of it.

Mat

[fiedlerh]

I posted in the 73-77 area before I found the above discussion.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=512984&page=2 scroll down

Tim at the Grand Am Registry has logged hundreds of Grand Ams over the years and has had numerous people claim to have original SD-455 Grand Ams. When asked for a partial VIN, no real SD-455 car has ever surfaced. Either they were regular Grand Ams, or they made excuses for not having the VIN.

We must remember that nothing is impossible. 20 years ago we thought the 73 A-body Ram Air system didn't exist, now there are 3 complete ones known (plus a few more claimed to be owned by people who apparently don't have access to a camera).

[Brian Baker]

Horst...thank you for posting a pic of the cancel order on the A and G bodies in the other thread...I still can't find my binder of literature (LOL).

[J.C.you]

i don't understand what all the hoopla is about over this deal? if the guy says he has the car, one has to give him the benefit of the doubt, until proven otherwise.

to make blanket statements that there were no SD cars that slipped out of PMD is silly, because no one here was there, and is just HEARSAY. there could have been mule cars with a regular vin no. that slipped thru the cracks. how about that? this x vin. proves nothing either. remember that is how the GTO was born, putting the 389 in a regular tempest.....

[goquick]

Does anyone remember the red SD-455 4 door Grand Am that the press got to drive? A GM executive that was transfered to ST.Louis drove that car for about 2 months before he had to give it back. I know because he lived next door to us. That was a very quick 4 door! And he absolutely hated giving it back. The next car he got was a Corvette and he said that the corvette was a pig compared to the Grand Am. Plus the Grand Am was perfect with his family. He had the vette for 2 weeks before getting a Truck off the line.

[uneasyrider]

What's this SS-Ford thing?

[J Brady]

As far as the vin number deal to get SD parts, that was a farce also. Local Pontiac dealer here in Emporia Kansas at the time, Clair Smith motors, order me a set of heads and 2 sets of rods with no vin number and I got both. That was in the fall of 1974.

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Brian,

Might be a good suggestion, but why am I doing this again? I really dislike this numbers matching stuff anyway. I have worked in the auto industry my whole life. There can be two or three of just about anything.

I will ask him and see what he says. I just thought you guys might like to hear the story. He is going to post the decals on Ebay.

Lynn

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

i don't understand what all the hoopla is about over this deal? if the guy says he has the car, one has to give him the benefit of the doubt, until proven otherwise.

HAD the car...it was stolen from him, remember? We are asking him to prove his claim, he thus far has been reluctant to do so.

Originally Posted by J.C.you

to make blanket statements that there were no SD cars that slipped out of PMD is silly, because no one here was there, and is just HEARSAY. there could have been mule cars with a regular vin no. that slipped thru the cracks. how about that? this x vin. proves nothing either. remember that is how the GTO was born, putting the 389 in a regular tempest.....

There is enough evidence to date that reinforces the claim of "no 455-SD engine was installed in an A or G body from the factory in '73". Comparing the birth of the '64 GTO to the still birth of a '73 A-body with a 455-SD is non sequitur.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

Brian,

Might be a good suggestion, but why am I doing this again? I really dislike this numbers matching stuff anyway. I have worked in the auto industry my whole life. There can be two or three of just about anything.

I will ask him and see what he says. I just thought you guys might like to hear the story. He is going to post the decals on Ebay.

Lynn

Lynn,

You're f@$kin' kiddin' me right? Finding what could be the "holy grail" of the 455-SD world, and you couldn't care less, because you're not a "numbers matching" kind of guy?

You could work in the auto industry for 10 lifetimes...to date there has never been a documented factory built 455-SD surface in anything other than the F-body...Horst posted a document bolstering this affirmation (I know the document, I'm the one that shared it with him)...the earliest build dates of any '73 455-SD T/A or Formula also bolster this affirmation, as none were built before that cancel document was published.

Your friends story is a nice one, but it's just that...a story. There would be no harm in his sharing the VIN with you. If he chooses not to, we all will know (including yourself), that he's full of sh!t.

[Jim Rotella]

Originally Posted by goquick

Does anyone remember the red SD-455 4 door Grand Am that the press got to drive? A GM executive that was transfered to ST.Louis drove that car for about 2 months before he had to give it back. I know because he lived next door to us. That was a very quick 4 door! And he absolutely hated giving it back. The next car he got was a Corvette and he said that the corvette was a pig compared to the Grand Am. Plus the Grand Am was perfect with his family. He had the vette for 2 weeks before getting a Truck off the line.

The press car I remember was a Florentine Red 4 door, 4 speed car with honeycomb wheels. It was featured in Motor Trend sometime in late 1972 prior to the new car introductions. They mentioned that the SD455 was to be available in the Grand Am but the one they tested had the standard 400 cu. in. engine.

Jim

[77 Canamman]

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

I will ask him and see what he says. I just thought you guys might like to hear the story.

Right now, this is more of a fairy tale than anything else. There is more of a chance that Sasquatch or the Loch Ness Monsters exists!

[johnta1]

"no 455-SD engine was installed in an A or G body from the factory in '73".

Have you heard of a 455 SD Grand Prix?

[uneasyrider]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

i don't understand what all the hoopla is about over this deal? if the guy says he has the car, one has to give him the benefit of the doubt, until proven otherwise.

to make blanket statements that there were no SD cars that slipped out of PMD is silly, because no one here was there, and is just HEARSAY...

I tend to agree. It's a possable/probable thing. Is it probable that the SD came in the A or G cars, no. Is it possable, yes. Anything is possable. The real question might be what are the odds. As stated above some 4dr Hemi cars were built to homologate the engine and it's possable that for the same reason a "wierd" SD or two is out there. Odds... 99% against but... The research shows the probabilty is low but as I have seen from working for large companies and subcontractors of gov. projects just because the records aren't there is truely no indication of what went on it's just a good check. You would REALLY think and I DO meen REALLY THINK at some of the places I've worked at the records would be impeccable considering what they were dealing with but it just isn't the case. Lost and poorly kept records is not uncommon in even the most important circumstances. When you go out to dig up 300 barrels of "X" and that's what every record you can find says is there and you find 1000 well... The funny thing is that they can find some old timer that can (and probably has) tell them that there were 1000 of them out there because he helped put them out there.

P.S. Do you think there was a gov. inspector riding down the production line on every car? I know when the cat's way... anyone worked night shift?...

[Region Warrior]

Ok Lynn, now i have to side with the non believer's.
Thought he had the car.
But even if he did;

Papers can be forged.
Blocks can be restamped.
Can even have new vin plates made.

[mattgouras]

I think it is expected that if you enter into this forum with claims of never-seen-before type Pontiacs, some folks are going to challenge the assertion.
People get all worked up over these things, and in the end we finish right where we started: such cars are simply rumor and innuendo.
Until documents are produced, we can all argue all day about the probability of such things. Anything is possible, including three-headed aliens who use tractor beams to mutilate cows and make crop circles. Believe the myth if you choose to!