[Cliff R]

Points and condenser make more sense these days than ever before. Right to start with the vast majority of these vehicles woln't see 20,000 miles in the next 200 years, getting driven mostly in nice weather and couple of trips to work and maybe a weekend outing each month.

I LOVE setting distributors up with points and always buy two sets. One set get the dwell set then goes in the glove box, the other installed, dwell set, engine timed, and we're in business.

I'll also add that aside from a very slight advantage on cold starts and improved idle with MSD stuff (if your carb is too lean), a set of points is a fine high performance item. I still remember years ago when a very good friend and fellow racer swapped out the points distributor we had set up for his race car and replaced it with an MSD billet unit. He'd been running 6.50's around 104-105 MPH 1/8th mile and the car immediately slowed down about .03-.05 seconds. We couldn't figure it out, till some old time told us that even though both distributors were "locked-out", the points provided some natural timing retard at high RPM's accounting for the very slight performance advantage.

Jump ahead to about 15 years ago just for fun we decided to back to back an MSD billet distributor against my "stock" HEI, that uses a factory 990 module, stock weights, springs, etc. The only mod is that a positive stop for the advance is welded in. The dyno runs were near blueprints of each other with a very slight advantage to the HEI, but nothing to start doing back-flips over.

Once again it shows just how good the factory parts really are, and they are very reliable in long term service, unlike a lot of this aftermarket crap that is available these days.......FWIW.......Cliff

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by 400 Lemans

Had one that lasted maybe 1000 miles and went out at about 60 mph just like turning the key off. Ended up on side of the road and had my spare points to replace it with. Slung module by the power wires as far as i could throw it. Back on the road again.

LMAO! It sure would be nice to see a video of that.

[TCSGTO]

I've had a Ignitor III module with a rev limiter for 5 or 6 years and it has worked well but is currently being replaced with a set of points and separate rpm limiter. I'll be using the Accel 32oz. point set.

Even with a good timing chain and the Sims mod timing is starting to jump around at idle and act erratic, and its not because of weak springs. I never noticed any performance gain with the module but liked the fact it had the built in limiter.

[My442]

I have run a Pertronix unit in my 442 for 20 years.

The Pertronix II for about 12 years, and the Retronix III for about 8 years.

The key to making them live is to use the correct Pertronix coil AND feed them 12 volts.

They do not run well using the factory resistance wire.

[Dragncar]

I did a test years ago at the track. My friend has a distributor machine and I set 2 distributors up exactly like my 62 iron unit Dan Whittmore set up for my 455 with Accel points. One was a HEI and the other was OEM points but with Petronixs conversion. They all ran 12.10s I decided there was no power to be found in distributors as long as they work like they are supposed to.
I understand a crank trigger will get you 5-7 HP in a race engine though.
I have a couple of interesting old school duel point distributors. One is a Accel and the other is a Mallory. The one with the giant brass condensers on the outside. People just gave them to me because I am kinda the local Pontiac guy and they had no use for them. Maybe I will test them out one day but doubt I will find anything either.

[Will]

A distributor cannot add power to an engine. It can only ensure the engine is making the most power it's capable of by delivering adequate spark at the right time. Any distributor that can do that reliably is a good distributor.

Frankly, a stock HEI is all 95% of street engines need. Well, recurved for the application, of course. I just wish someone would make quality weights and center plates for them, not the ultra-crappy stuff that's available now. I mean really, how hard can it be to stamp and heat treat steel of the appropriate thickness and weight?

[Sun Tuned]

Well it looks like I stumbled onto to something yesterday....

Google search
Standard LX807....

[tom s]

Anyone that runs multi carbs cant run the big top HEIs and virtually all my cars either are,had been or will be multi carbed I continue to use stock dizzys with the pertronix conversion.I have had friends buy the pertonix dist and had issues.Tom

[KEN CROCIE]

Crane/Comp/FAST XRI--I love em, been dead reliable, has rev limiter, easy to install. Comments?

[Sun Tuned]

Tom you need to let me send you one of my standard cap HEI setups to try.

Iron case, HEI guts..... and I mean just that, full sizeHEI guts. External canister coil. Got 12 running around now with 2 pushing 100,000 miles each.


Ken, I've installed 3 for customers... haven't heard back any issues so far. Even have a couple of the XR700's left. The old ones.

[tom s]

Ken,I'm happy with what I have been using.Tom

[Will]

Originally Posted by Sun Tuned

Well it looks like I stumbled onto to something yesterday....

Google search
Standard LX807....

Weird that none of the links that come up say what the actual application for this is. No description of what it's for on any link I looked at. if you didn't know, how would you know?

[dataway]

I came up with all AMC applications for that part number.

I have certainly learned to love points ... like has been said, with a set in the glove box with a condenser, you probably have the most reliable ignition made.

Has anyone EVER seen a set of points fail ... I don't mean a set with 50,000 miles on them and no maintenance, I mean a set of points that breaks and will not work.

[Cliff R]

The only time I've seen points fail is when the engine stalled out and the key was left on for an extended period of time and the points just happened to be closed.

Kind of interesting but I drove and raced a 1970 440 powered Roadrunner for many years. Drove it all thru High School and had it quite a few years after I got married. It had a set of the better Mallory points made back in the 1970's with the thick rubbing block on them, not the later production with the short block. I ran the SAME set of points in 3 different engines the entire time and zero issues. Aside from checking the gap occasionally and running a folded up piece of 600 grit auto body sandpaper between the contacts to smooth them out, they never grumbled once. I'll bet I had the big 440 to 6000 rpms at least a zillion times and it NEVER faltered or even acted like it just would keep right on revving.

The key to long point life is to make sure you have the correct ballast resistor in place or using the factory wire to the coil that has the resistance built it. Also stay away from "bug zapping" coils, they can be very hard on the points and LOTS of folks that went that route back when I was in High School had continuous issues with points ignition systems.

I also saw it mentioned someplace about using a points distributor to signal an MSD. Several folks I know do that for dedicated drag racing applications and have had the same points in place for decades with zero issues.

Any type of electronic ignition system that uses a module will eventually fail, it's just the nature of those things. I've had far better success yanking used 990 modules out of junk yard and swap meet distributors that buying anything over the counter. The 990 module in my current HEI is from the mid 1970's and still doing fine. Right on the dyno that HEI outran an MSD billet unit in a back to back test, not by much but it did make slightly more power clear across the loaded RPM range.......FWIW........Cliff

[Sun Tuned]

After talking to the tech guru at pertronix, I found out if it doesn't come in their box and have their stickers on the actual Hall effect... it's not theirs.

Interesting note about that sticker, if it's gets wrinkled, spilt, or trying to delaminate itself from the black plastic the transistor has overheated and it's likely toast.
The man also said EVERY one they have manufactured in the last 22 years is perfectly fine to run non resisted 12v to. It will not hurt them. What is not conducive is leaving the key on for extended periods of time much like a set of points, they don't like that at all.

Apparently Standard is manufacturing a knockoff of the pertronix. Oreilleys around here is marketing the thing as a pertronix. It's not. Just call one and ask if they have an lx807, and they will tell you all about it.

Not pushing the lil pertronix, just trying to remove some of the grey area about them. I build 3 fully magnetic conversions when needed so no need to use the aftermarket stuff at my place, mine all use factory parts. However as with any automotive item if you have underlying issues that need correcting, those need to be addressed before the new anything you're about to install can do any good.

If the basics aren't nailed down then the rest of it is going to be junk.

[Cliff R]

Can you explain why a factory ignition module can survive scores of scenarios where the key is inadvertently left on after shut-down, and doing the same thing to every aftermarket module I've tried "cooks" them in short order?......Cliff

[81TTA]

It likely has to do with the way they're sensing the teeth on the trigger wheel.

Hall effect sensors (most aftermarket and later production ignition systems) behave more like points where it detects the presence or absence of a tooth on the wheel. Basically, it's a metal detector that indicates when metal is close to the sensor (i.e. when the tooth is directly in front of it) or when it's further away. The output of this type of sensor is a nice square wave.

Variable reluctance sensors (used in HEI distributors i.e. pickup coils) detect the *change* going from a non-tooth/valley area to a tooth and tooth to non-tooth. Also, the amplitude of the signal changes as the toothed wheel spins faster. If nothing is spinning, there's no signal from the VR sensor. It doesn't know whether it's sitting on a tooth or in a valley between teeth. The output of this type of sensor is something of a sine wave (depends on how close the teeth are) that oscillates positive (when a tooth transition is detected) and negative (when the valley transition is detected).

With a hall effect sensor, if the key's on while the engine is off and the sensor detects a "dwell" state, it will behave just like points and start charging the coil until something gives. With the VR, nothing is going to happen until the engine is moving.

Later model ignition systems have moved to hall effect engine position sensors. But, they also have computers that can look at the history of the signal to determine whether the engine is moving or not.

[Formulajones]

The new pertronix are supposed to have a fail safe protection built in where they shut down if overheated.

Matter of fact that's the issue I had with them in my Firebird years ago except it wasn't from leaving the key on, it kept happening on long highway cruises at extended RPM intervals. It would just shut down like you turned the key off. Sit for 15 mintues and it would fire up like nothing happened. I could drive the back roads at lower speeds and lower rpms and it would work just fine.

Pertronix warrantied both units and I replaced them twice. However after the 2nd unit did the same thing I left the brand new warrantied 3rd unit on the shelf where it still sits today.

I determined on the Firebird with that distributor hidden down low and behind that intake manifold, it just wasn't getting enough air flow and eventually that module would just overheat.

I will say I never had this issue on the Chevrolets I converted, where those distributors are up higher and more open to airflow.

Ken, I've converted a few cars over for customers to the Crane units with the built in rev limiters and no complaints at all from those. Also used a couple of the M&H Electric 1-wire conversions without complaints.

However these days I stick with points in my own cars. I never have to adjust them, just check them with a dwell meter once in a while, usually during an oil change, takes 20 seconds. They are dead nuts reliable for us, and we use them in our daily drivers.

Dataway, to answer your question.....NO. I've never had a points failure in anything in the last 35 years. I run Accel points exclusively and have them in 4 different cars here. 2 of them are daily driven. The points in my Firebird were nearly 20 years old and running perfectly when I decided to replace them last year before a trip to the dragstrip, and for the record, the fresh points and plugs didn't do a damn thing for the car. Still ran identical. The set in our Z go to 7,000 rpm no problem and never skips a beat. The points in the 56 Nomad have been in there since 1985 and it still purrs like a kitten. All the cars will fire off with a blip of the key.

All the talk about points being unreliable, constant maintenance, hard to start, I simply find all that to be hogwash.

Not to mention like Cliff touched on, if Points ever did fail at any point in time, I can have a set in the car in 10 minutes on the side of the road. What are the chances your car breaks down in front of Summit or Jegs running a conversion kit? Here in Arizona the chances are ZERO. LOL When you're in the middle of the desert you'll appreciate the simplicity of the points.

I have nothing against electronic ignitions, however I find the conversion kits a little risky. Sometimes okay, sometimes not. I'm just not willing to take chances with them anymore. And now with the knockoffs that Sun Tuned is finding, it's an even riskier proposition. As far as O'Reily's goes, they lost my respect when I went in asking for a set of Accel points, which they used to carry. After getting looked at like I had 3 eyeballs and then the comment that they felt sorry for me that I was still running points, (from a guy that was older than me no less) I realized how ill informed and inexperienced the counter people are there. Especially in an area where Arziona is somewhat of a classic car mecca. O'Reaily's even stopped carrying a lot of the holley carb parts that used to hang on the wall. So the store has really become no use to me.

[Sun Tuned]

Right,
The factory modules had the circuitry in them robust enough to withstand being left on for a reasonable amount of time. But rest assured they too will get hot .
This new stuff replacement modules lack the circuitry that made the original modules from the oem's the darlings that they were. The Dwell control circuit and the current limiting circuit immediately come to mind. Cheaper to manufacture and cut those corners they figure I guess. Plus I'd bet heavily on the fact that once the OEM 's get a design nailed down they're satisfied with, they patent it and it becomes increasingly hard as hell to invent a better mousetrap without stepping on those toes.

About halfway through testing HEI modules now anyway. Found quite a few pieces of hot steaming... and so far have 2 new ones I like.

As the points supply dries up the quality of the new ones is gonna leave you frantically searching for an alternative there also Cliff. No taster if if but most certainly when. And those wonderful napa cs89's everyone was liking a year ago...
Go buy a new set now that Standard bought out Echlin and you will soon find out that at approx 4100 rpm you will end up with a lot of Vince that the same points didn't exhibit last year.

Buyer beware.

[Sun Tuned]

Bounce