[Rocky Rotella]

Sun Tuned,

Question for you on module failures in general. When they do fail, what part is it internally that fails?

[gtofreek]

We've tried 3 customer supplied Pertronix units. 2 were complete distributors, and 1 was a conversion. Couldn't get any of them to fire the engine on the dyno. Called Pertronix and questioned them if we were doing something wrong. They told me what to check, and I did. Everything they had me check was fine, but they wouldn't work. Spent hours dealing with them. Installed MSD and no problems. No more will we try to use one.

[Sun Tuned]

Rocky,
I've only cut a couple apart to see what's inside. If they're bad they get chucked.

It would depend on what caused the failure. They have IC's, diodes, transistors inside. And multiples of each. Depending on what caused the initial issue "generally" one of two transistors fail. That's all about the pnp, and npn electronics stuff. If it goes out there's no way at home really you can just dig in and mcguyver it at that point. Just diagnose and troubleshoot it and identify the failed module and replace it. Since time is money, the economics of trying to repair it make not a lot of sense.

A look at an MSD HEI module will give a little better idea of what it takes to build one. The guts on those are open for the eyes to see. What is kinda neat is to look at the original GM deal and realize the electronics part of all that are housed in a space roughly 3/4"X1". This was figured out way back in 1969 ish. Motorola was the big deal with ic chips back then.

All abo

[unruhjonny]

this is worth quoting;

Originally Posted by Formulajones

...
All the talk about points being unreliable, constant maintenance, hard to start, I simply find all that to be hogwash.

Not to mention like Cliff touched on, if Points ever did fail at any point in time, I can have a set in the car in 10 minutes on the side of the road. ..

When the pertronix were getting lots of press, I was tempted;
When really intrigued me was getting an electrinoc conversion with a built in adjustable rev limiter...
But I just kept running points.

I believe I commented something along the lines of what 'Jones said last year, and was scoffed at for it...
I'm glad I'm not the only one with zero interest in electirc ignition modules in my classic.

I actually pulled over on my drive to work this morning;
There was a 95-97 Trans Am on the side of the highway;
I think his ignition (opti-spark) was the issue - it would just cut out... He started and stalled three times while I was stopped.
dang electronics

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

this is worth quoting;



When the pertronix were getting lots of press, I was tempted;
When really intrigued me was getting an electrinoc conversion with a built in adjustable rev limiter...
But I just kept running points.

I believe I commented something along the lines of what 'Jones said last year, and was scoffed at for it...
I'm glad I'm not the only one with zero interest in electirc ignition modules in my classic.

I actually pulled over on my drive to work this morning;
There was a 95-97 Trans Am on the side of the highway;
I think his ignition (opti-spark) was the issue - it would just cut out... He started and stalled three times while I was stopped.
dang electronics

I really could use rev limiters on a couple of cars here. But so far I haven't pulled the trigger. I just don't care for the ignition module conversions so I won't go that route.

I'll likely do one of 2 things. Just run a box and let the points trigger it. Still reliable as it would drive away on points alone by moving a couple wires around if the box ever failed.

Or just run a complete MSD setup and go electronic that way. We have 2 cars here that both have had MSD distributors and boxes in them for more than 20 years without complaint. But they are weekend fun cars that see about 5-7,000 miles a year for the last 20 years. I don't care for HEI's either. Not that they don't work, as long as you can find a reliable module, but I don't care for the non stock appearance of them in classic cars.

Just seems the aftermarket electronic business is getting kind of shaky these days.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Sun Tuned

As the points supply dries up the quality of the new ones is gonna leave you frantically searching for an alternative there also Cliff. No taster if if but most certainly when. And those wonderful napa cs89's everyone was liking a year ago...
Go buy a new set now that Standard bought out Echlin and you will soon find out that at approx 4100 rpm you will end up with a lot of Vince that the same points didn't exhibit last year.

Buyer beware.

I've wondered about supply and demand. I haven't had much trouble getting the Accel points. The speed shops in Phoenix still have them hanging on the walls, and I usually grab a set just to have them when I'm there. I've bought a couple sets from Summit no problem, one set just recently.

They still offer stockish 23 ounce, 32 ounce, and 48 ounce sets, and they all come with the rubbing block felt and a little squirt of grease. Only set I've ever found that still does that these days.

As far as quality goes, they still seem to be just as good as they were 40 years ago. I typically run the 23 ounce sets and they go to 7,000 rpm without any issues. They still have solid contacts, not that cheap $20 hollow crap you get with no name store bought sets that seem to burn up quickly and can't be filed. The 20 year old Accel set I pulled out just recently that has seen more than 50,000 miles still looked pretty darn good. A quick touch with a file had the contact surface looking like new. I kept those and will reuse them at a later date.

If for some reason supply dried up I'll have to cross that road when I get there but for now the points do an excellent job in our cars.

[unruhjonny]

Sorry for continuing this tangent, but is this article now out of date?
(I have it saved to my computer)

link to PDF
Link to this quote

An article from SWduke

Default NAPA Echlin ignition points (contact set)
Over the years there has been confusion over the various contact sets sold by NAPA under the Echlin brand. There are a total of six applicable to Delco single point distributors not including the "uniset" that combines the points and condenser in a single assembly. NAPA also sells a price leader line called Mileage Plus and a couple of other sets in different brands.

TDB member and NAPA jobber Tim Schuetz of Waukesha, WI also wanted to get to the bottom of it, so Tim sent me four of the six part numbers for analysis in boxes marked CS86, CS89, CS786P, and CS7860.

Armed with a three-pound spring scale, mic, caliper, multimeter, and plain screw driver to partially disassemble the breaker arm leaf springs for measurement, I offer the following measured and visual observations. A summary of the measured data follows the discussion. All have screw type terminals rather than using the breaker arm spring to secure the wires like the old Delco D106P, a design I never cared for, but the old Delco D106PS has a screw terminal.

Achieving consistent breaker arm tension readings required a little practice, and I found than listening to Bach during the measurements improved consistency.

CS86: This set is listed on the Web site as "standard" and is equivalent to the OE points installed on single point Corvette distributors before '73 when the uniset became OE. The breaker arm tension is speced at 19-23 oz., and in addition to the main leaf spring, which is non-magetic or just slightly magnetic indicating stainless steel, there is a thin parallel leaf that appears to be copper and is likely there for conductivity. It is too thin to add breaker arm tension.

CS89: This set is listed on the Web site as "high performance" and appears identical to the CS86, but main breaker arm leaf is .002" thicker, which increases breaker arm tension to equal the 28-32 oz. of the long-discontinued Delco D112P.

CS786P: This set is listed on the Web site as "vented", but the set in the box was not vented and is most likely the CS786 discussed next. Other than the perforated contact pads, the CS786P is likely identical to the CS786. Vented points have been around for decades, and the theory is that they run cooler, which extends point life, but I have no personal experience and have never seen a scientifally conducted test.

CS786: This set is listed on the Web site as "heavy duty" and has larger contact pads, which increases contact area by about 43 percent. Also, the breaker arm is a different design - different geometry - which made measuring breaker arm tension difficult, but it's basically the same as the CS86.

CS7860: This set is also listed on the Web site as "high performance", and has the same spring thickness and breaker arm spring tension as the CS89, but it has some different construction details. The other three sets' breaker arm springs are retained to the breaker arm by a 90 degree tab that fits into a slot in the breaker arm. This set has no tab. Rather, the end mounted to the breaker arm is longer allowing it to be secured to the breaker arm with the rivet that retains the rubbing block. It does not have the thin copper parallel spring, but I could find no difference in resistance with my ohmeter that measures to about 0.1 ohm. All are essentially zero to 0.1 ohm resolution. The insulator is red rather than white on all the others, and the adjustment spring has blue Loctite.

This set also has another interesting feature. Packaged with the capsule of grease is a small felt pad with a slot. The slot fits over the rubbing block, and the instructions say to grease both the rubbing block and felt pad. This should help retain grease and should be included with the other sets in my opinion. Despite this extra feature and what appears to be somewhat more robust construction, this is the least expensive set of the six!

CS7860C: This set is listed on the Web site as "racing only", and I suspect it has higher than 32 oz. breaker arm tension. Since the 32 oz. sets will go to at least 7200 revs in a snug distributor, this set should not be necessary for any road-going Corvette with something close to an OE engine configuration.

Part.........Spring.....Spring.......... .Contact.. ...Web site..............Online
number.....tension,...thickness,......di ameter.... comment.............price
...............oz..........in........... ......in.

CS86........24..........0.018/.006.....0.152".......standard.......... ....$16.49
CS89........32..........0.020/.006.....0.152".......high performance...$21.49
CS786......24...........0.018/.006.....0.185".......heavy duty..........$15.69
CS786P....---...........----/-----......------......vented................$16.49
CS7860.....32..........0.020/---.......0.152........high performance...$14.99
CS7860C...---.........-----/---........-----........racing only...........$16.49

My basic usage recommendations are as follows:

1. Engines with redlines up to 5500 and the 1.8 ohm ballast - CS86.

2. Engines with redlines up to 5500 and the 0.3 ohm ballast - CS786. The additional contact area might reduce the tendency to burn up points, which is not uncommon on systems with the 0.3 ohm ballast, especially in cold weather. Ballast resistance decreases with decreasing operating temperature and vice versa.

3. Engines with redlines over 5500 - CS7860. This set is less expensive than the CS89 and has some better features.

Proper distributor operation is necessary for peak engine performance - everything from idle quality to making it to the redline with no spark scatter or ignition breakup. It's possible that if you have a freshly blueprinted distributor, a standard tension set will make it to 6500 in a mechanical lifter engine, but in my experience, maximum high rev performance in mechanical lifter engines requires a 32 oz. set. As with many tuning parameters, what works in your distributor for you boils down to the condition of your distributor, your driving habits, and maybe some experimentation. My bet is that a majority of single point distributors out there are in need of a blueprint overhall, which has been discussed on the TDB many times. If the ignition system doesn't deliver a properly timed spark of sufficient energy for all engine operating conditions, the engine will never achieve peak performance and fuel economy. It's that simple!

Nominal point life is about 30K miles, but can vary widely depending on ignition system configuration and condition. Since most of our cars have low annual mileage accumulation, it's a good idea to check that there is still some lubrication for the rubbing block at least every couple of years, and while you're at it, check point resistance and dwell angle. Dwell angle changes will effect initial timing, so checking initial timing is also a good idea after you have you checked and, if necessary, adjusted the points. Throw in the idle speed/mixture adjustment procedure and you've done a "minor tuneup" in less time than a wash job.

A hearty thanks to Tim Schuetz who said he doesn't want the test samples back. My plan is to auction off the CS86 and CS786 at our So. Cal. Chapter meeting next month and donate the proceeds to the chapter, but for the time being, I'm going to hang on to the CS89 and CS7860.

Duke

[Formulajones]

Those numbers are still available through Napa here although they are $25 a piece now, at least here anyway. So that information may be a bit dated.

I haven't looked at an Echlin set in years and never use them, but the biggest thing I look for that wasn't mentioned despite all the info in that article, is whether or not the contacts are of solid material. Most of the cheaper $20 sets I've seen have a hollow center. Which is why I've stuck with Accel all these years, plus they have a 100% 35 year long track record with me so I have no interest in experimenting.

However, next time I'm at Napa I'll ask them to pull a set and have a look out of curiosity. I can also mic the diameter of the contact on Accel points that I have here if interested for comparison.

[Formulajones]

GM part number 8101 Accel 23 ounce set.....mic'd the contact at .188"

Also have a 32 ounce set here that also mic'd at .188"

What I see that is interesting in comparison to your chart is that the only 32 ounce sets offered by Echlin only have .152" contacts, while the Accel's I have here are .188"

I use the 23 ounce sets here 99% of the time, even in our solid lifter 302, and despite that article stating the 24 ounce Echlin's are only good to 5500 rpm, I run the 23 ounce Accel's to 7,000 without issue.

[unruhjonny]

good to know.

good service parts are actually harder for me to get than you - so I need to know all this stuff before ordering anything.

[64speed]

With an MSD 6AL box a set of points will last forever. I didn’t grow up with points so I have never really used them. Always switched to HEI or MSD. The Holley Dual Sync first generation was manufactured by Holley and had a huge cap and was tall for a Pontiac distributor. The second generation is manufactured by MSD and some of the other boards said they were better so I called summit and got them to let me switch even though I’ve had my first one for more than a year. This is my first foray into fuel injection and timing control. I’m also a little worried about the composite gear on the roller cam wearing out and leaving me stranded so I guess I will keep a brass one in my bag of tricks.

[carbking]

Originally Posted by Sun Tuned

This was not designed to be a pertronix bashing thread.
I'd say 95% of failures are due to bad grounds on these things.. and as much as everyone thinks their car is top shelf I bet I could have a field day with a volt/on meter checking things that have gotten out of kilter in 50 years.
Most of the ground connections on these cars need serious attention. The reality of this is most never consider it unless there is a problem that warrants checking and correcting it. Not to mention with updated engines brings "lost" or "forgotten" ground straps.

Based off the nice email "Frank" sent me, wewill check into this and see what we got. Just generally saying a pertronix is a piece of junk without any scientific testing to back that statement up is just
Being opinionated and naive. The real questions that need answers are is it a piece of crap due to a faulty design? Or is it actually due to fundamental basic issues that keep a decent product from doing its job because the "basic" setup is inherently riddled with problems not due to the pertronix?

I'm betting a good 90% of the failures most have had are due to electrical problems elsewhere that really needed addressing even before the points were pulled in the first place.

You wouldn't believe (well, maybe with your experience, you would) how many "carburetor problems" I have solved over the years simply by taking a battery jumper cable, and connecting one end to the ground terminal of the battery, and the other end to a cylinder head bolt, after first wire-brushing off the paint on the head bolt !

Jon.

[Sun Tuned]

Thank you John!

I was wondering if anyone caught that. Or bothered to notice I said it and let it sink in and care.

Lots of things occur in 50 years on these cars.

[DANTIP]

I'm a fan of the M&H electric "Breakerless SE" point replacement. I've used them in every GM pointed distributor for several years and the only problem I've ever had was I had to retighten module. They take about an hour to install and use the same single wire the points use. I highly recommend!

http://www.breakerless.com/

[barrierblue66]

I'm running 2, in a 63 Cat, 389 and 66 GP 421, both installed for 10+ years. No issues and I drive my cars a decent amount of miles. Finger's crossed but I feel comfortable.

1963 Catalina Safari
1966 Grand Prix
1992 Grand Prix Petty Edition

[78 WS6]

Originally Posted by dhcarguy

I think Sun Tuned is right. I have a Pertronix coil and module in my car. It has been in there for over 9 years and about 13K miles.
I did buy another kit that I keep in the car because of the Pertronix bashing I read on this site a few years ago.
I would like to hear from someone who has had it in their car for a longer time. I wonder how long it will last????

Dave

I can not address the current Pertronix, but have 2 in nonHEI cars for over 20 years. Both are SBC in oem distributors, never any issues. One is 64 Corvette in order to keep "Original". The other in my 34 Chevy w/over 80K, didn't think I had room for HEI. Just upgraded 34 to ZZ4 and found, I actually did have room for the HEI.

[mback12000]

I bought a Pertronix points conversion kit, the style with the magnet ring mounted under the rotor. The magnet ring had 0.090" runout which is impossible to use considering the recommended gap is a fraction of that. Junk.

[mgarblik]

I ran a Delco Transistor ignition distributor as a trigger unit only to an MSD 6 box hidden behind the glovebox. Kind of the best of both worlds. Looks stock with the nice iron distributor and the pic-up coil set-up good to high RPM, 6200-6500 RPM. All the benefits of an MSD including the rev limiter.

[grahamp]

I have installed a pertronix ignitor in my Judge distributor, it has worked well but the hood tach no longer works. Has anybody solved this problem? Otherwise back to points!

[GTO JONES]

I wouldn't put pertronix in my lawn mower. Tried it in 2 different cars both quit, went back to points in them.