[Baron Von Zeppelin]

U66
72 TA 455HO Auto
White/White Deluxe. /Honeycombs

$47k on the Hammer

[Buck Wilde]

Do you think Mecum would guarantee an amount to for a signature car like the OO RAIV Judge convertible? It’s good publicity and the the owner had $2M worth of cars in the auction so maybe they throw him a bone. It’s funny how the announcers predicted $1M for the car in advance and that’s what it hit.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

ouch
There is only one known car that fits that description (70 GTO Ram4 Convt - Restored) so that slims down those factors to about 1 car. Gold 4spd. with an SR
The only other is an unrestored White Automatic.

Did they have to re-adjust the restoration from it being original engine - to SR block - afterwards ?
That would have been awkward.

The story was told in a car magazine write up for a 70 GTO.... pretty sure it was red.

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

U66
72 TA 455HO Auto
White/White Deluxe. /Honeycombs

$47k on the Hammer

That looked like a decent deal for the buyer. Thanks for all your updates during the auction. It made it a lot easier for me (and I'm sure others) to follow along what was going on.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

U202
Blk-Blk 70 Judge Ram3 Auto AC

$63k on the Hammer

Sold
or Stolen ?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

All of these last 3 were Bought Well on Sunday !

The 70 GTO VOE / Tiger Button car - I couldn't see any red flags.
Most VOE cars that pop are mostly YS Automatics.

The 72 TA might not have had the right type of engine.

The 70 Judge - if it was factory Blk/Blk that was a give away price.

Maybe someone knows the stories on these cars today ?

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

Well since we are going there on block re- stamps (god help us all lol)
Here’s MY .02 that’s worth about .01 or less-

I have had this discussion a few times w friends, I personally like to see an SR because I know it’s honest. It’s someone saying hey I didn’t have my block but this block is just like it. Others say they are misrepresenting that an SR block was swapped for their factory block by warranty .

I’ve been around the RA thing a while but on the race side of things not the restoration side but a lot of guys in racing re-stamped stuff early on for stock class. To be legal this includes remaking casting numbers letters etc- All makes.
This is almost expected in the corvette / camaro world from what I’ve seen even on the restoration side.
I may have a different perspective if I had a born with car but I don’t, I have an SR that came from the dealer that raced my car, that I can trace back to the beginning . It was bought from Stephens at the same time as the RAV pro stock engine and was part of the Stephens racing parts haul in the early 70s .

So understanding that everyone is jaded by their own cars and experiences let’s move on.

I also know of a few guys who allegedly re-stamped blocks on high end cars. I heard about it from the racing side. But these were restorers . They took an EQUIVALENT blocks and made it match the car. These cars have sold and owners are quite happy, idk if they were told or not told. But I also don’t know that it matters. . Yes they were high end cars, but the block didn’t know what it was going to be when Poured as long as it was the same kind of block (these weren’t necessarily pontiacs BTW) let’s say RA IV for RAIV and date correct or RAII for RAII or RAIII for RAIII who really cares if it was done correctly! This assumes it was done correctly.

My personal car the dealer had a RA II race car the year before and they unloaded my car brought it to Lebanon valley raced it that day to see what it would do (baseline) came back and in thier service department, swapped short blocks w the RAII GTO that was balanced and blueprinted by jack merkel. This was allowed by NHRA because they were both 2506 blocks. So my car ( presumably can’t rule out that they didn’t test other engines) spent all of its life except one day w the blueprinted RAII short block and RAIV top end
So what is really its engine?

Well the factory installed a RAIV WH, but the dealer installed a RAII WY,.
I say who gives a **** as long as it has a 2506 or better between the frame rails .lol.

It’s when some clown decides to make a RAIV out of a 350 HO or something stupid that it matters .

So I have the RAII short block and the RAIV SR short block from Stephens, I also have the RAV pro stock dual quad engine from Stephens, for my car and IM happy. Would I like to find the original WH sure why not have a forth engine for the car. LMAO .
My point is I think we make too big of a deal out of born with/ numbers matching .and if the money didn’t matter between one versus. The other people wouldn’t be as apt to re-stamp blocks.

( But if I had a BORN WITH car , I’d make a big deal out of it too! ;-) )


That’s why I DON’T give out my VIN though, so iIF I do find someone w my original block I know it’s original and not someone re-stamping blocks to match people looking . This IS a new trend in other makes to be aware of . I’m told there are guys making a nice living out of re stamping blocks to match “looking for my original block” threads .

I think it matters a lot when additional money exchanges hands because it is the original engine. It's also not right for the guys that really have the original engine.... Years ago I looked into selling one of my cars at an auction. I strongly felt it was wrong that my car with its original engine, had to be presented the same as a similar car with an obvious restamp "number matching" engine.

I personally would want to know if the car I'm buying has been rebodied or not. I know some guys don't care, but it would make a difference to me. I recall someone comparing it to whether one's girlfriend used to be a man. Some folks might be bothered by that and some won't.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Dealers would pay those prices even on a rainy day.
And they might have all 3 went to dealers or flippers.
So they might be up on eBay or BaT pretty soon.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Maybe Mcronk decided to go there this afternoon -
and bought that Black Judge !

Said he was giving it some thought.
THAT would be mighty awesome .

I figured it was going to hit at least 85-90 minimum , plus fees.
But that was presuming if it was legit all the way.

[necdb3]

Mark did not buy the Black Judge.

The 72 T/A was a bit of a mess, you couldn't even close the drivers door. If you looked at it, it was clearly thrown together with a mismatch of parts for a sale.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Wow on that 72 TA
Looked back at the auction pictures and in one it looks like driver door isn't shut quite right.
And the bottom of passenger door is sticking out at the bottom a lot.
Hopefully it was bought in-person .

[Mcronk]

Sunday was "reality" day. Most GTOs were in the $30k to $50k range. The 72 T/A as mentioned was not a nice car. Myself and several others tried many times to shut the driver door and it just was not happening. Under hood and overall appearance was a "cobbled" together car.

In some respects I think the 70 Judge today was the best buy. It did not have Judge grills and I don't recall seeing a PHS on the car displayed. The reality is I would rather buy a car from the owner and not at an auction. I want to look the owner in the eye and ask questions as well as get a test ride/drive. That said I have bought cars on the internet but no where near this kind of money.

This auction is done and whether you like it or not a lot of money was spent on some very rare and desirable Pontiacs. Some are freaking out about the $1.1 million dollar car and how that is destroying the hobby or making these cars exclusive to the rich. Today was a counter point to that argument. It was not too long when the hemi cars hit a million. Now some of them are lucky to bring more than $200k. This too shall pass. Enjoy the spotlight while it lasts.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

22 Hemi cars at the auction
7 had Wings on the back

The 70 Blk/Blk and OO Ram4 Judge Hardtops outnumbered the majority of the non-wing Hemi cars.
I think it was only one exotic (butt ugly) 71 Charger that outnumbered the OO Hardtop.
And a low mile Cuda edged it out barely.
Most were 100-200+
So that was wild in itself.

Then there was the low scale 2013 type prices on the 70 White and Blue Ram4 Judges.
So things were all over the place this year.
But for the most part the good GTO's brought good or great money.

A couple 65 Hardtops hit 6 figures too

[Mcronk]

I am in the market to aquire a 69 Judge or possibly a 70 depending on colors.

I think the best buy of the auction for Judges was the 70 White RAIV 4 speed in Como collection. It sold for $137,500 which was a very good buy for a RAIV 4 speed Judge. The restoration was nicely done. Some items were added to the options but done in a correct manner. Those items would make the car more enjoyable to drive ... PS/PB/AM-FM etc. I think that car was overlooked among the other cars in more "eye popping" colors.

I was very interested to see what the 68 RA II car would bring. I own one and have done research on these cars. Prior to the auction I had concerns that the "auction crowd" would not appreciate the RA II for what it was. I thought it would "get lost" among all the Judges and RAIV cars and the condition of the presentation was not the best. I was very surprised as it was the first of the round port GTOs to cross the stage and brought very good money. These cars are rarely at auctions and there are so few left it is hard to determine value. Most of them trade hands in private sales. I am still not sure the $253k reflects a number that can be backed up at least 75%. I think the fact that Jim Mattison once owned this car helped.

The same goes for the OO Judge RAIV convertible car. Was this an anomaly? We did have a second one cross the block at $572 which was about half of the OO car. My feeling is unless another car can come within 75% of the OO car the $1.1 million is not going to hold. Haggerty has a very interesting tool that is a scatter plot of sales prices across several years on a specific models. This $1.1 million is probably an outlier on the scatter plot.

Someone had mentioned a couple of cars had changed hands that are on the RAII list. I would be interested to know which ones, condition/correctness, and value, if the person can share that information.

[Alan Reed]

Just curious, does anyone know the new home of the million dollar Judge?

Also, did anyone notice the camera did not find the buyer?

The camera was on the "phone bidder" desk, while an unknown, unseen bidder out-bid the phone bidder.

Typically the camera will focus on a bidder to capture the emotional win, followed by the high-fives and handshakes. But this time all we saw was an "all done" by a phone bidder.

And, if I was bidding on a million dollar car, I sure wouldn't want to pay the extra 2% buyer premium charged to an offsite buyer. (on a million dollar bid, that is $20K)

High end bidders who want to remain anonymous commonly hire a surrogate bidder to represent them at the auction.

I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I am skeptical that anyone paid $1.1 million for that car.

Adding to my skepticism, a blue Judge sold for half that price on Saturday. Was it half as good? It seemed to be a comparable car, quality restoration, same drive train.

We car guys want to believe that our cars are valuable and desirable, and we tend to accept high sale prices without questioning them because it makes us feel better.

There is much we don't see at the big auctions. Who knows what shenanigans and manipulations go on behind the scenes. Clearly, the auction companies thrive on publicity, and a record sale gets them much publicity.

Would an auction company contrive a fake sale to gain publicity? It has been done. Did it happen this time? We will likely never know

[napster]

I know this about GTOs, but I noticed a very nice 1979 T/A that went off on Friday night with the Pontiac 400 4spd. and had 682 miles on the odometer. Looked like a real nice car. Bid up to $85K and went to the Bid goes on....

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0123-53...tiac-trans-am/

[necdb3]

Alan, I noticed a lot of cars were won by phone bidders this year. I was there in person and the "phone bidder light" was on a bunch.

Originally Posted by Alan Reed

Just curious, does anyone know the new home of the million dollar Judge?

Also, did anyone notice the camera did not find the buyer?

The camera was on the "phone bidder" desk, while an unknown, unseen bidder out-bid the phone bidder.

Typically the camera will focus on a bidder to capture the emotional win, followed by the high-fives and handshakes. But this time all we saw was an "all done" by a phone bidder.

And, if I was bidding on a million dollar car, I sure wouldn't want to pay the extra 2% buyer premium charged to an offsite buyer. (on a million dollar bid, that is $20K)

High end bidders who want to remain anonymous commonly hire a surrogate bidder to represent them at the auction.

I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I am skeptical that anyone paid $1.1 million for that car.

Adding to my skepticism, a blue Judge sold for half that price on Saturday. Was it half as good? It seemed to be a comparable car, quality restoration, same drive train.

We car guys want to believe that our cars are valuable and desirable, and we tend to accept high sale prices without questioning them because it makes us feel better.

There is much we don't see at the big auctions. Who knows what shenanigans and manipulations go on behind the scenes. Clearly, the auction companies thrive on publicity, and a record sale gets them much publicity.

Would an auction company contrive a fake sale to gain publicity? It has been done. Did it happen this time? We will likely never know

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

There are only 2 other Ram4 Judge Convertibles that can come within 75% of the OO Automatic that just sold.
Or they might possibly match it.
The other OO is a 4spd car , but has oddly trim of Saddle and Dark Gold.
The Black Automatic car is breath-taking with Sandalwood interior and top.
A good number of high end collectors want these 3 particular cars - in particular.
The Black Auto or OO 4spd both could make 75% - or better - of the auction price even in a private sale.
But , those owners do not wish to sell them.
Ask yourself why - then add that to the factors.
If they got offered 2 Milly , would they ? Maybe , maybe not.

The Blue Auto and a Silver Auto have been offered several times in the past with failed reserves.
They are fantastic cars and have high values , but they are not Black or OO.

Folks , look at the IV Judge Hardtop prices from the event.
Is a Black Judge worth 2 White Judges ?
Is an OO Judge worth almost 3 White Judges ?
From an engineering or mechanical standpoint the answer is No.
But that's not what drove their prices further up , it was color , and how many prefer a certain color(s) over other colors.
Its not just an addition - its multiplication.

And it was an auction full of people who WANTED to spend money.
Not a website full of guys who HATE to spend money.

The Black 69 IV 4spd Judge Convertible pulled over 800k many years ago.
It would do a Milly or plus now.
69 TA Vert pulled a Milly years ago, but those are locked in White and locked in Ram3
All 8 are known now.

13 of these has been a long standing number of survivors.
Doesn't look like there will be many more, if any more at all.
And they have RoundPort engines versus DPort TA's

The math works , if you know how to work the math.
Not every 70 IV Jvert just became a 1mill car.
This was the very best color combo possible - for moneybucks.
And the only one with that exact color combo.

Not every 68 Ram2 Hardtop 4spd just became a 260k car.
This was the VERY BEST Hardtop on our list by a good margin.
Great Colors, 4spd, Born With Drivetrain Completely, Good Equipment, Hideaways to boot.
We don't have another fully comparable example.
I think enough people finally realized that. Boom - they wanted it.


Mcronk ,
RedBull is a Ram2 GTO Red/Red Auto Hdtp.
He didn't sell it, was just reminding me he still has it.
8-Ball is a Ram2 4spd Firebird Blk / Blk , he did sell that one , 95% finished.
Big Tall money I am sure , but amount not disclosed.
It will be featured soon in print.
The Birds usually bring more than the Goats

[jhein]

Originally Posted by napster

I know this about GTOs, but I noticed a very nice 1979 T/A that went off on Friday night with the Pontiac 400 4spd. and had 682 miles on the odometer. Looked like a real nice car. Bid up to $85K and went to the Bid goes on....

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0123-53...tiac-trans-am/

Stance on that car looks too high. Not right. You wouldn't expect that from a 682 mile car.

[besserspat]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Folks , look at the IV Judge Hardtop prices from the event.
Is a Black Judge worth 2 White Judges ?

Like the old wise saying , " Never Book a Judge by Its color. "

Peter

[Scarebird]

I would disagree - the specs call out 8.07" front, 7.61" rear for 1972 "F"s measured at the bottom crease of the rocker.

We are most likely simply used to looking at car with decades of cycles on the suspension.