#21  
Old 04-30-2023, 10:32 AM
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Well, chaps.. I did do a bit of thinking along these lines myself, obviously. I was thinking, "gee, that column is probably there for a reason." But then I saw that it doesn't seem uncommon on other aluminium heads for other makes to go so far into the headbolt bulge that it's completely cut wide open. And these are high HP cars running high compression. I considered the deck thickness and how much meat was still there fore and aft and I reasoned that it must be fine. I do think it's probably fine. In the end I figured that probably the "reason" for the thickish head bolt column was to reduce production wastage in cases of core shift.

The other thing I considered was that porting-wise it was probably more significant than the pushrod bulge. That one just squeezes the inlet a little. It probably even has benefit at realistic power levels. But that head bolt one is just squatting there in the middle of the long wall turn that is trying to instigate the swirl. I'm aware it probably does almost nothing at low flow but I bet it's more significant as lift and throttle opening goes up.

Of course we all know that probably what happens at the seat interface and within an inch of it is the most important bit. Hopefully the small backcut and the smoothing on the chamber help a little there...

My head bolts are all ARP and they do use a largish thickish washer also. Anyway, I'll be sure to report back on any issues.

Sam

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  #22  
Old 05-02-2023, 06:51 PM
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OK. So after sealing up the rocker threads I found out again that I just suck at setting lash on hydralic lifters. I just never seem to know where they are really at unless I do it the messy way. So after trying to do it the right way I again just set them on a running engine. Made an oily mess clearly. After that was all good I did a compression test. Pleasantly surprised. All good and more even cylinder to cylinder than before. I'm wondering if the valve seats weren't all as great as they could have been out of box (I relapped all the valves on reassembly).

Anyway, there was oil in lots of places so I figured I'll probably have to drive it a bit before I can come to any solid conclusions about the oil burning. Well, today I was able to go for a bit of a test drive again. I went down to the one bit of straight road that I can sometimes do some testing on depending on traffic. No smoke during normal driving and just a bit to be seen on a hard run. But then I know I'm still burning off spilled oil. Anyway, I'm driving back which is uphill and windy. I decide to drive a bit faster because I know that before when I got a lot of oil it was in situations like a sustained bit of mid-throttle and then a sharp turn. Well, blow me down. First hard corner I meet after being into the mid throttle for about ten seconds or so a nice big roller of blue smoke. Now I'm really feeling what I felt at first. It's like oil collects somewhere when I'm in some sustained acceleration especially uphill and then all that pooled oil spills over somewhere hot in the corner.

So, I'm thinking that really as far as oil-sealing surfaces that I've touched in this whole operation there are the valve covers and there's the valley pan. I'm suspecting the valley pan. Especially at the back of the pan where it would spill out into the distributor area. I did have the gasket slide slightly out of place when I started tightening it. I thought I pushed it all back in place but of course I can only see the two sides and the front part easily. It could be pinched in the back. I suppose I'll just have to drain down the coolant and check that out when I get a chance.

On the bright side I did get to do a charge or two from a start and a kick down to second from a roll. I definitely feel like it should be faster. Hopefully will know next month... But I have to get this fixed. Especially if it's external...

Sam

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  #23  
Old 05-02-2023, 07:41 PM
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Before you take it all apart again, and to pin down this oil smoke issue perhaps better try to have someone drive behind you on that turning road and have them note if the smoke is coming out one tail pipe or both.

With the handling of that car oil may just be climbing up into the bottom of a few cylinders and overwhelming the oil rings.

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Old 05-08-2023, 05:46 AM
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Just a quick catchup. I dealt with one thing I noticed whilst the heads were off which was that the return hose for my power steering pump had gotten brittle and started to leak. It's right in front of cylinder #1 and it seemed at least plausible to me that if it dumped fluid when I turned the wheel after it got hot then hit the manifold... Anyway, dealt with that, recieved my new spark plugs. Changed them. Went for a blast yesterday. Figured if it wasn't fixed at least the plugs would tell me if it was internal or external. Well... It's not external... Fact is, I'm seeing some evidence of carbon or oil on about half of the plugs. In a way, that's good. It's something not just in one place. It's either something upstream or something I consistently got wrong!

OK. Here's the "driver's" bank
7, 5, 3, 1


And here's the "passenger's" bank
2, 4, 6, 8


I think 7 looks most "wet". 8 looks great. 5 and 3 pretty good. Happy for any second opinions there.

Anyway, my plan today is drain some coolant, pop off the intake and shove a light around inside the runners and see what I can see..

Sam
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  #25  
Old 05-08-2023, 06:22 AM
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Sam all most of your black wet plugs are fed off of the passenger side ( upper plenum) of the Carb so I think some of your issue lies there.

It's I bit hard to tell, but it also looks like your plugs are one step too hot judging from what I see of the good looking plugs even though they do not just have only full throttle time on them.

I would be curious as to what a compression test shows up in relation to the bad looking plugs.

Sam, in terms of doing any more porting work on your heads I would not bother, since out of the box they flow more then what your stock HO Intake does, so your Intake is the area cork.

Already this type of area mismatch is giving you a narrower power band then what you could have, and increasing air flow by porting the heads will only make that issue deeper.

Number 1 is what you have taking place, when its number 2 in my photo that you want in a perfect world.
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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
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Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
  #26  
Old 05-08-2023, 08:28 AM
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Coolant drained. Carb off. Yeah, looks a little sooty on the one secondary bore in the intake (lower, driver's side) but looking back to the pics I took before I even took the heads off I can see the same. There's a big vacuum barb off the back of the carb for brake booster. Wonder what that hooks into internally in the carb? I think I might check my brake fluid level also in case maybe the booster is on the way out and it's pulling some brake fluid?

Anyway, looks like the carb plug well repair is holding up. Carb gasket was bone dry. Nice!

More details sure to emerge after I pull the intake...

Sam

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  #27  
Old 05-08-2023, 08:59 AM
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Number 7 looks like it was having trouble burning the strap clean. I don’t see much for evidence the issue is confined to one plenum necessarily, but 3 of the 4 plugs on the lower plenum have extra deposits on them. I think maybe Steve had the upper and lower plenums and cylinders backwards (or I do)? Number 1 was second worst for deposits, showing up more toward the threads though, instead of the strap.

I would look carefully on the number 7 port and look for either a bolt not sealed that has oil access into the port, or a spot of porosity were you ground at the pushrod pinch. My best guess is the smoke issue is connected too the recent work on the heads or from reinstalling them, and having some oil sucked past a bolt that isn’t blind. (What Skip said). Maybe inspect the port with the intake off will tell more of a story.


Last edited by Jay S; 05-08-2023 at 09:04 AM.
  #28  
Old 05-08-2023, 09:02 AM
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That big vac port just ties into both plenums of the Intake.
Your brakes would take far more foot pressure if the booster had a bad diagram.

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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
  #29  
Old 05-08-2023, 09:17 AM
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Too late now, but I would have swapped #7 with #5 and do a run.
Then see what #7 looked like?
To me it's not firing worth a darn?

Those plugs are a cold plug also?


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  #30  
Old 05-08-2023, 09:49 AM
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OK. So now we're definitely down the rabbit hole with Alice...

Intake off and.. Well, one thing. But I don't think it's related. (spoiler alert: it was -- I'm talking about #6)

OK. First, manifold. All clean at the runners where I'd opened them to match the gaskets. So pretty sure nothing coming upstream of the heads (like from carb, PCV, brake booster, etc).

Second, runners. Well, durn it, they're all good and clean. I mean, I changed the oil so unfortunately if clean oil pulls in it won't be that obvious if it doesn't get cooked but even putting a finger in they all feel dry. I don't know how much of that is fuel in the intake washing away evidence but I don't see anything comeing from any of the rocker holes in the ceiling and my valve cover bolt holes are all sealed as I left them.

I've had to rewrite what I was about to write here. I saw something in the garage and I didn't even appreciate what it was until I saw the picture on a bigger screen. #6 has a decent amount of oil pooled on the intake valve. Like, decent. The other pics it's harder to tell. Hmm.. Could I have really screwed up replacing the valve seals that badly? I was gentle, used the applicator, WD-40ed everything...

OK. Other thing I noticed was the intake gaskets. They look almost oil soaked. Almost like they've been wicking something.

intake gasket passenger side


intake gasket driver's side


Not obvious that any real amount of oil has come out from valve cover or valley pan. Valley pan seal looks good, honestly.

I'll check all the valves for pooled oil now that I know what that is. But #6 really had a lot pooled. And that wasn't even the worst spark plug...

Sam
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  #31  
Old 05-08-2023, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glhs#116 View Post
the headbolt (ARP mine) have a machined washer with ARP goop on both sides and torques to 100 ft pounds...

...New valve seals on now (used WD-40 and the plastic applicator so they all should be good).
DO NOT put lube on the side of the head bolt washer that faces the cylinder head. Lube on the back-side of the washer leads to over-torqing the bolts/studs.

I think you rely far too much on WD40; which is a crap product for every purpose except removing water (from distributor caps, etc.)

"WD40" also has "specialist products" which are reasonable lubes, penetrants, solvents and such, but they're only labeled "WD40" as a brand-name, they're not the original water-displacing formula.

  #32  
Old 05-08-2023, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
DO NOT put lube on the side of the head bolt washer that faces the cylinder head. Lube on the back-side of the washer leads to over-torqing the bolts/studs.

I think you rely far too much on WD40; which is a crap product for every purpose except removing water (from distributor caps, etc.)

"WD40" also has "specialist products" which are reasonable lubes, penetrants, solvents and such, but they're only labeled "WD40" as a brand-name, they're not the original water-displacing formula.
You made me double check because I know I followed the ARP guide for my bolts for the newer Edelbrock heads. It definitely specified the ARP lube under the head, under the washer and on the threads. Then 100 ft pounds in three stages.

WD might not be the best product for valve seal install but done carefully with the plastic applicator on the stem would it really be expected to rip the seals?

Sam

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  #33  
Old 05-08-2023, 03:28 PM
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Sigh. Well, seeing as I have a second set of valve seals I'm swapping them again. Using nothing but engine oil for initial lube and going slowly. But, honestly, done four so far and the ones I'm taking off look fine and have all stayed nicely at the base of the guide like they should. All the valves I've done so far have very little lateral play. I'm still rather stumped. But I'll get them all replaced anyway...

Sam

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Old 05-08-2023, 09:51 PM
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https://arp-bolts.com/p/faq.php
Quote:
Do I need lube on my bolts or studs?
We recommend using ARP Ultra-Torque lube to ensure an even, accurate clamp load and to prevent thread galling. This is particularly important for stainless steel fasteners. The lube should be used under the head of the bolt or the bearing surface of the nut and on the threads, unless a thread sealer is used.
^^^NO mention of lubing the underside of the washer.

This is where I learned about the issue:
https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...ng-head-bolts/
Quote:
if that head bolt washer is smooth enough, it can turn as the load is applied. This effectively turns that washer into a bearing, reducing the friction. If this spinning washer reduces the friction by even a third, this applies another 10- to 15-percent of torque into stretching the bolt.


I don't like the presentation in this youtube video, the guy needs to work off of a script--but the washer-lube info is accurate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skvJ...b_channel=BOOT

  #35  
Old 05-09-2023, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
https://arp-bolts.com/p/faq.php


^^^NO mention of lubing the underside of the washer.
Ma dude, like I said, you made me double-check. I'm sure ARP have multiple different products. But for my head bolts this is the instructions

"Lubricate the underhead of each bolt, the bottom side of the washers and the threads with ARP ULTRA-TORQUE FASTENER ASSEMBLY LUBRICANT."

http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/190-3605.pdf

I do recall seeing that article before and, in fact, I have seen some OEM washers like that with the little raised grip things.

I'm kinda bummed about this whole situation. Got all the seals replaced. Can't really see a problem with the ones I took out. Can't really see where else oil gets in. It's clearly getting in multiple places so it's not like "oh, maybe some porosity" or "oh, maybe a crack" because then it would be in one place. I'm really not sure how to track this down...

I guess, at least I know it's happening somewhere in the heads. I found oil on the back of maybe four intake valves. I found a lot pooled on that #6. And, of course, later when I'd done the seals and the valve had been pushed (dumping the oil) there was no evidence of it in the port. So I guess I've not even much hope of seeing where it gets in because the oil just isn't leaving any permanent trail or mark. This weekend is a race weekend so this all really kinda sucks.

Sam

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Last edited by glhs#116; 05-09-2023 at 12:53 AM.
  #36  
Old 05-09-2023, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
https://arp-bolts.com/p/faq.php


^^^NO mention of lubing the underside of the washer.

This is where I learned about the issue:
https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...ng-head-bolts/




I don't like the presentation in this youtube video, the guy needs to work off of a script--but the washer-lube info is accurate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skvJ...b_channel=BOOT
I'll just leave this here https://tech.arp-bolts.com/instructions/190-3604.pdf for the application of the ultra lube for these studs, FAQ are often just the coles note version to a product line not the actual instructions for a dedicated product.

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  #37  
Old 05-09-2023, 09:36 AM
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Do the valve cover bolt holes break through on any of the 4 intake ports? If they do did you put sealer in the bolts? I saw that mentioned earlier but didn’t see any response

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  #38  
Old 05-09-2023, 09:57 AM
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Sam, you mentioned working on resealing the well plugs on your Qjet at the same time that head work happened. I am curious what you did to fix those? That can be tricky too fix, and can create some similar issues with smoke, running rich.

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Old 05-09-2023, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holeshot71 View Post
Do the valve cover bolt holes break through on any of the 4 intake ports? If they do did you put sealer in the bolts? I saw that mentioned earlier but didn’t see any response
I sealed those off with cut off studs when I first got the E heads. They never leaked and don't look like they are now.

Sam

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  #40  
Old 05-09-2023, 11:00 AM
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Sam, you mentioned working on resealing the well plugs on your Qjet at the same time that head work happened. I am curious what you did to fix those? That can be tricky too fix, and can create some similar issues with smoke, running rich.
LOL. That was actually the one I was nervous about. But after doing the carb I put a new carb base gasket. When I took the carb and intake off again now I found it clean and dry as a bone. I did follow Cliff's advice to drill, tap and insert screw plugs made from cut up bolts. I didn't just epoxy over the top.

Also, the intake runners where I matched them look like they did when I finished with the intake. All dry and clean. I don't think there's anything happening upstream (carb, PCV, etc). The oil that's getting in seems to be happening in the heads in some way.

As I understand it that's really got to be valve seals or those rocker studs. Basically, having verified the oil in the intakes by seeing some actually at the valves on a few ports I'm left with just a few frustrating conclusions:

1. The new valve seals I installed before were bad (maybe hard from sitting on my shelf for years?) or I messed up the install. I doubt I hurt them putting them on since I used the applicator. I now know that none of them rode up. They were all in place. Were they hard? I guess that's possible but I'm having trouble getting too excited about that one...

2. The rocker studs are leaking past the threads. For that to be true it would also have to be the case that when I sealed them with blue loctite that didn't work and when I sealed them with RTV that didn't work. It's possible, I suppose. I'm sure in both cases there was still probably some brakeclean on the head threads (since it's pretty hard to get in there to dry it) and maybe then stuff just didn't set right? Again, I'm sure a lot of people clean threads and then the stuff still sets. But, maybe..

I was really hoping for more of a "smoking gun" when I took the intake off. It was weird to see the intake passages so clean but still see the oil. Unless it came from the valve guides that means that the oil isn't leaving any tracks. And if it doesn't I don't know how I'm supposed to track down what's happening.

Thanks for all the help, though, all!

Sam

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