#81  
Old 05-26-2023, 08:20 AM
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On the head bolts boss’s, when I go thru I use a bead of Permatex (The Right Stuff Gasket maker). I make a bead below the washer, around the bolt, so when installed it makes a sealing plug. Just a bead, if you use to much it is hard to get the bolts out. Let it dry or it won’t seal. If I use a copper sleeve I epoxy it in. I have only used copper on the pushrods though.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ptx-34328


Last edited by Jay S; 05-26-2023 at 08:31 AM.
  #82  
Old 05-26-2023, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glhs#116 View Post
LOL! "Install an LS"

I mean, clearly not...

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HAH! I’d fly over there and help you fix it before that! That’s crazy talk….

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  #83  
Old 05-26-2023, 09:13 AM
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Who said anything about LS ? oh you did..

your current plan is going to FAIL you report a .516 hole which is probably inaccurate on the small side but i will roll with that the tube you are ordering is .500 OD its not going to seal against the head bolt hole it wont be tight enough and further more this .500 OD tube has a .472 ID and you want a nominal .500 bolt to drop in and torque, not gonna work

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  #84  
Old 05-26-2023, 10:23 AM
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I seem to have upset Mr. Formulas somehow but it's a good point (and why I was asking the question).

Someone must have sleeved an Edelbrock Pontiac head headbolt hole before, right? The part Steve25 linked to is .563. My measurements show that clearly wouldn't fit. I see sizes .500 .563 .625 .656 and these seem to be the sizes Dart are selling for head bolt holes on US engines with inch sized head bolts. So, you know, that's where my confidence is based on trying that size. We'll see I guess. But I'm wide open to be told a better answer. Just doing what I can.

Sam

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  #85  
Old 05-26-2023, 11:38 AM
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Sam I guess I may have missed it, but did you grind thru the head bolt boss and this is why you need / want to sleeve it?

Like what has been said if you did you can seal it off from oil without the sleeve job, only if you have ground thru both common walls will you need to sleeve and seal to keep the vacuum within each port so to speak.

  #86  
Old 05-26-2023, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glhs#116 View Post
I seem to have upset Mr. Formulas somehow but it's a good point (and why I was asking the question).

Someone must have sleeved an Edelbrock Pontiac head headbolt hole before, right? The part Steve25 linked to is .563. My measurements show that clearly wouldn't fit. I see sizes .500 .563 .625 .656 and these seem to be the sizes Dart are selling for head bolt holes on US engines with inch sized head bolts. So, you know, that's where my confidence is based on trying that size. We'll see I guess. But I'm wide open to be told a better answer. Just doing what I can.

Sam
This is the tubing we usually use for sleeving Performer RPM head bolts holes. Most of the time you will need to ream the ID of the sleeve after its installed. With the heads installed the holes could be sealed from from consuming oil with the Right Stuff and a little care... No need for the sleeves.
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  #87  
Old 05-26-2023, 01:31 PM
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My first E heads I had KRE hand port-before CNCs- came back pushrod and head bolt tubed.

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  #88  
Old 05-26-2023, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve25 View Post
Sam I guess I may have missed it, but did you grind thru the head bolt boss and this is why you need / want to sleeve it?

Like what has been said if you did you can seal it off from oil without the sleeve job, only if you have ground thru both common walls will you need to sleeve and seal to keep the vacuum within each port so to speak.
Well, I only knew of one place where that happened. But I know they are all ground fairly thin. Because I only knew of one place I was concentrating on the other stuff. But I now know the valve seals are good. I'm also now sure that the rocker studs are sealed. So it's what was left to look at.

I only know of one breakthrough. But I also know that when walls get thin porosity can be an issue. So I'm open to the possibility that it's in more than the one place. I know I have oil getting on more than one hole. That's basically it.

Sounds like this tube idea is a bust if Paul is telling me they use 17/32" and have to ream the inside. Ah, poop. I just liked the tube idea for ruling the headbolt holes out completely since this is driving me nuts.

Right Stuff RTV ordered.

Sam

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  #89  
Old 05-27-2023, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAUL K View Post
This is the tubing we usually use for sleeving Performer RPM head bolts holes. Most of the time you will need to ream the ID of the sleeve after its installed. With the heads installed the holes could be sealed from from consuming oil with the Right Stuff and a little care... No need for the sleeves.
Reading between the lines, is it going to be incredibly difficult to install sleeves with the heads on? I now have 17/32" sleeves. They were 1/2", but after forcing them over the threads of some spare head bolts they now measure out at 17/32" or so. Actually, I'm getting .523" OD on these. I measured the ID of the headbolt holes at around .516". That pretty much means with a wall thickness of greater than .008 (and these were .014 wall thickness before stretching) it's not going to have room for a 1/2" bolt. Although it's a soft metal so I imaging you can just turn the bolt and force it through. It won't matter much because the bolt will land on the skinny portion in the sleeve at the point where you are torquing it... At least that's what it looks like.

Embiggened


Only took three hours


The reason I'd like to go sleeve is it just rules out that whole thing. My problem may still be elsewhere and I'd like to not be playing "did I get the headbolt washer to seal or didn't I?" And also I only know about one breakthrough but I have more than one oily hole. So, you know, at least with a sleeve each runner is for sure sealed...

Anyway, when I get the extra sealant I'll probably have a go unless someone tells me why not to.

Sam
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Last edited by glhs#116; 05-27-2023 at 09:38 PM.
  #90  
Old 05-28-2023, 06:26 AM
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What I do when I sieve a push rod hole with brass tube is cut a length wise slot down the tube with a cut off disc.

I then install the tube with the cut slot facing the solid wall of the hole.

You would have to opt for the installing the slot side on the widest area you have which may be the valve bowl side or the intake flange side of the head.

The cut slot serves a very useful purpose in that you can bend the tube open more and then it becomes more of a press fit into the hole and less likely to grab the head bolt and throw off the torque setting.

I hope this fix does it for you because oil getting into the intake charge does a number on whatever octane of fuel your running.

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  #91  
Old 06-01-2023, 05:31 AM
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I'd be grateful of any more tips from anyone who has sleeved an Edelbrock head on an engine. This thing is kicking my arse.

I pulled the head bolt associated with #7 because that is my biggest oiler. The ARP sealant made it very clear (since the ARP thread lube on the threads is black and the bolt is black and the ARP thread sealant is white). The bolt I pulled out was white down its whole length. Clearly had been pulling past the head and washer. I remembered I had a cheap crummy bore scope. Yup. Scope showed me a hole a lot bigger than the one I made. I assume the vacuum acting on the thin metal made it bigger. So at least I'm not guessing now where the oil comes from.

Pulled all the plugs and it's clear this is the case for #7, #6, #2.

Cleaned out the hole again. Took one of my sleeves and cut a slit up it like Steve was saying. I figured if nothing else it might be easier to get back out that way.

Slitted sleeve


My sealant choice is the Loctite 243 again. I applied to the sleeve and with some difficulty managed to get it driven in to about a centimeter under the lip (so it would clear the "washer bulge" on the bolt under the head without catching). I waited through the fifteen minute "setting" time for the sealant and then started carefully threading the bolt through. Sure enough, even though the threads have lube and the outside of the sleeve has partially set sealant it started turning and ultimately I had to pull it and the bolt out. I reasoned that it hadn't sat nice and flat against the wall because of the distortion around the hole. I figured I'd need a solid sleeve.

Cleaned up the hole again and applied sealant to a sleeve that I hadn't slitted. Tried to drive it down to the same "about one centimeter" depth as the other but I found that the hole seems tightest at the top end and so it's easy to drive the sleeve too far. I ended up about 3/4 of an inch below. No biggie. Still well above the hole and still with the bottom of sleeve above where the bolt threads will be when torquing. Let it set about twenty minutes. Again, carefully turning the bolt in it seemed to go well for some time and then I started to realise I was spinning the sleeve. But the bolt was a good way in and I figured maybe it had some threads showing out the bottom of the sleeve by now. I figured maybe I could get the threads to start. I mean at this point I'm racing against setting sealant on a tight sleeve wrapping a head bolt. I gently tapped it down with my brass hammer and a socket but it wouldn't start. Now I had a bolt and sleeve covered in setting sealant jammed at the bottom of the hole. At lease I could keep turning it to stop the sealant grabbing but taking the bolt and sleeve back out took the whole night, a broken rope, breaking my stud mounted valve spring compressor and a whole bunch of creativity. I could see when it was out that the bolt had gotten to the end of the sleeve but not poked out so the end of the sleeve pinched inward on contact with the block threads. Well, it was a relief to get it out. It was another releif to get the sleeve off the bolt without damage. And it was a big relief to see the bolt undamaged and the block threads undamaged (wasn't surprised -- I'd never use any real force against something like that). The bolt still looks like new and easily gently hand tightens in the block until the washer contacts just like before. But I clearly need to know some tricks.

I've got a few things in mind:
• I could wait 24 hours for a full set. Would take me five days to do them all but if it works then worth it
• I could try to ream the sleeve thinner. Of course it would be so much more difficult then to drive it in place without damage. Also, difficult to hold it to ream it without damaging it. And I only really have a 33\64" drill bit for doing that (which is a looser fit than the ARP bolt threads)

Unless someone has some good advice I'm probably going to wait for the Right Stuff sealant and just forget the sleeve idea. But it seems like a cleaner result if I could do it so I still kinda would prefer to do that...

Sam
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  #92  
Old 06-03-2023, 03:03 PM
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Install the sleeves first and letthe sealant harden. Then run a 1/2" reamer down the tubes. This will clean up any wandering of your drill bit if drilled to size and any shrinkage that occurs from the press fit in the head. A 1/2" reamer will set you back about $26 on Amazon.

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  #93  
Old 06-10-2023, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint View Post
Install the sleeves first and letthe sealant harden. Then run a 1/2" reamer down the tubes. This will clean up any wandering of your drill bit if drilled to size and any shrinkage that occurs from the press fit in the head. A 1/2" reamer will set you back about $26 on Amazon.
Thanks for this. I tried with the Right Stuff RTV but I think I failed because I failed to keep any of the ARP thread lube from touching the sides as I put the bolt in. This then made a spot where the RTV couldn't grab. Tellingly, it wasn't hard to remove the bolt. It was, of course, hard to remove the Right Stuff RTV from all the places it did grab.

I'm going to need to sleeve I'm pretty sure.

Got myself the reamer. Been trying to get these holes nice and clean and so I've been making use of some feminine hygene products (I consulted with my wife). Need trimming down a little but using the brass tube as you would use a sleeve to install a piston I could get a tight wad of, ahem, product into the hole and soak it in solvent. Using a rod and the handy string I can work this around in the hole before drawing it out. It's a pretty good cleaner.

Tools of the trade


Gets 'em clean


I figure I can glue in one tube from each head and let it set. Twelve hours later I'll try to ream them and try to get out all the shavings (it's brass so I'm not too worried about whatever I don't manage to retrieve). Hopefully, if that goes well I can put those two bolts in, torque them down and do the other two holes...

First sleeve in
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  #94  
Old 06-10-2023, 06:02 AM
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As in the above post I to am starting to wonder if a big percentage of your smoke is due to unburned oil in the exh system.

If you run your finger around the end of each tailpipe do you get a oily film on your finger at all?

If so then you may just need to take a long enough high speed part throttle drive to burn that crap off.

Too bad you don’t live in Germany, as the autobahn is great for that.

I also agree that it’s time to do a leak down test somehow someway!

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  #95  
Old 06-10-2023, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve25 View Post
As in the above post I to am starting to wonder if a big percentage of your smoke is due to unburned oil in the exh system.

If you run your finger around the end of each tailpipe do you get a oily film on your finger at all?

If so then you may just need to take a long enough high speed part throttle drive to burn that crap off.

Too bad you don’t live in Germany, as the autobahn is great for that.

I also agree that it’s time to do a leak down test somehow someway!
Compression test was good. I don't have any equipment for a leak down. I do, however, have a big hole in the #7 wall. It must have gone on the first drive because it wasn't that big when I was grinding (more a little crack). But I think a thin part came away with the driving.

Big hole


Pretty sure a sleeve will be best here at least. The other two holes that get oily don't have big holes like that which you can see on a dollar store bore scope. But that one does.

So, we'll see.

Sam
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  #96  
Old 06-11-2023, 05:15 AM
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OK. So I started with the tube for #6 and #8. I chucked up the reamer and, of course, it bit hard and spun the tube. Got it pulled and started working on how I could ream it outside the hole. Well, it looks like attempts to ream outside the hole are pretty much doomed because you're trying to hold something that is getting thinner and weaker and it also seems to reliably find a weak spot after a while and chew through the side.

Fail


So, after a few experiments I decided that I would hand turn the reamer backwards gently in the hole, pulling it up each time it started to grab, lubing it with cutting oil, pulling it out regularly to wipe the brass dust off the flutes. It got caught a couple times. It did actually move slightly up at one point. It also took over four very patient hours. But the tube for #5 and #7 is now reamed out and the head bolt installed. One down, three to go.

Reaming


Winning

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  #97  
Old 06-11-2023, 07:08 AM
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Maybe something like this would work under the head bolt washer?

https://www.mcmaster.com/products/se...s-and-washers/

There are other styles also, in metric etc.

https://www.mcmaster.com/products/sealing-washers/

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  #98  
Old 06-13-2023, 01:17 AM
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Well what do you know? Finally, and with much general effort, four tubes installed. First test drive was last night. Couldn't see if there was any smoke behind me, obviously, but running it in the garage after I noticed a distinct lack of the haze of blue smoke which used to rise and curl around the lights if I left it running in there. Picked up my son from his night shift this morning. Back window is not the cleanest, sun on the horizon. Bloody blue interior so the blue from the parcel shelf reflected on the hazy back window with the mist in the rear view mirror was always looking like blue smoke coming out but each time I would look in the side mirror and it was actually clear. Did the whole windy road up and down the hill to my son's work and back and nothing. A few small blasts on the short straight bits of road where I could and still looking clear. Back in the garage, give it a couple revs. Looks clear. I'm still feeling gunshy about saying this but I think it's fixed.

Thanks so much to everyone. If there's a small amount left I suspect it will just be because something is getting around a split in a tube that's in a bad place. But actually I think it's finally fixed.

TL;DR: If you break through to a head bolt hole on an Edelbrock head you DO need to sleeve. Also, if you take out the rocker studs you need to seal them.

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  #99  
Old 06-13-2023, 05:58 AM
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Sam that's superb news to finally hear!
Now enjoy catching up on lost driving time.

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  #100  
Old 06-13-2023, 08:06 AM
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Great news glad you got it fixed. Persistence and patience paid off.

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