[BierManVA]

Hey all,

As I continue my rebuild, I had to replace the crank. All other parts are the same as my initial install a few years ago. Original install had perfect numbers on the cam when I degreed it.

It's a comp cams with the standard LSA of 110 and 4 degrees advance built in. Install at 106 per the cam card. Well, I keep getting 104 at the intake lifter. I'm using 9-way Cloyes cam sprocket and initially had it on the standard keyway. I'm guessing the camshaft keyway was cut off a couple degrees here and wanted your opinion on that.

I've done this measurement three times by the way and verified TDC and good orientation on my dial indicator, etc.

So I guess I would need to use the retard keyway. Isn't every 2 degrees at the crank equal to 1 degree at the cam? Or does the cloyes 2 degree retard equal 2 at the cam?



Thanks

[Jay S]

Normally if you want the cam to run on 106 you install it on 104. I add 2 degrees for slack in the timing chain for when the engine is operating.

The cloyes 9 way set should let you move the timing 2 if your wanting go set it on 106.

[Formulajones]

I see it all the time. They almost never fall where they should. With cam and crank keyways, timing set keyways, all having the possibility of variance to some degree it can throw the ICL waaaay off in some instances. Sometimes moving the 9 keyway sets to what is supposed to be just 2 degrees I've seen it change 4 degrees or more the other way.

I agree with Jay, if the cam manufacture wants 106 and it falls on 104 I'd run with it. As long as the number you're getting is repeatable I'd say it's accurate and good to go.

[BierManVA]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I see it all the time. They almost never fall where they should. With cam and crank keyways, timing set keyways, all having the possibility of variance to some degree it can throw the ICL waaaay off in some instances. Sometimes moving the 9 keyway sets to what is supposed to be just 2 degrees I've seen it change 4 degrees or more the other way.

I agree with Jay, if the cam manufacture wants 106 and it falls on 104 I'd run with it. As long as the number you're getting is repeatable I'd say it's accurate and good to go.

Thanks guys.

Good info. I think I will retard one notch on the cloyes and see where I land. If that gear is off, I'll go to the original 104 and stay there I guess.

Guess I was lucky the first time, that thing was spot on.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Think I'd check an exhaust lobe and verify the 110° LSA

Where to degree would depend on a bunch of stuff
The cam
Car weight
Rear gears
Transmission/converter
Bore and stroke
Static compression
Heads w/ or w/o mods
intake type
Exhaust manifolds type AND whats behind them
And how do you plan to drive it. What RPM range do you want it to run the strongest.
And probably tire info

Takes me a minute to decide stuff like this
Clay

[lust4speed]

Typical day in the life of a person setting up the cam:

First time gets 104°, didn't have his 2nd cup of coffee this morning and goes the wrong way on the next attempt and gets 101°. Takes a coffee break and comes back and does everything correctly but that 2° slot gives him 107.5°. Doesn't believe it so tries two more times and gets the same result. Gives up and goes to lunch. Comes back to the engine and decides 104° isn't that bad after all and lives with it.

[Cliff R]

Always double check your work by using the intake opening point at .050" tappet lift. In most cases you'll find the cam was close enough dot-to-dot that it's really not worth moving it.

If you do move it don't be the idiot who just moved the lower sprocket to another keyway then lined up the original mark on the lower gear with the mark on the upper gear, figured it was good to go and completed the assembly. ALWAYS re-check your work after each movement with the gear set........

[Half-Inch Stud]

Aysymetric lobes need Voodoo to find the ICL huh.

[Jay S]

I took a quick look at some cloyes 9 way instruction and it seems like someone at cloyes does understand cam degreeing at all? They are referencing the cam from the crank. It should be the other way around!

https://www.cloyes.com/9-keyway-crank-sprockets/

I haven’t used their 9 way set. The last cloyes 3 way set I had was stated as +/-3 and moved the cam +\- 6. I shrugged it off at the time, and figured the 9 way did as it was supposed to moving the timing in small stepped.

Like the guys said. double check!!!

[70GS455]

Originally Posted by BierManVA

Hey all,

As I continue my rebuild, I had to replace the crank. All other parts are the same as my initial install a few years ago. Original install had perfect numbers on the cam when I degreed it.

It's a comp cams with the standard LSA of 110 and 4 degrees advance built in. Install at 106 per the cam card. Well, I keep getting 104 at the intake lifter. I'm using 9-way Cloyes cam sprocket and initially had it on the standard keyway. I'm guessing the camshaft keyway was cut off a couple degrees here and wanted your opinion on that.

I've done this measurement three times by the way and verified TDC and good orientation on my dial indicator, etc.

So I guess I would need to use the retard keyway. Isn't every 2 degrees at the crank equal to 1 degree at the cam? Or does the cloyes 2 degree retard equal 2 at the cam?



Thanks

Which method did you use to measure? Equal distances down from either side of max lift, or cam card .050 numbers or advertised numbers?

Is the lobe profiles non-symmetrical? If so, you will get different numbers depending on the method. And different opinions on which one is the best.

If it's a symmetric profile, no worries

Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk

[Schurkey]

When it's me, I check #1 and #6. No need to reposition the degree wheel, just move the dial indicator.

This gets both banks, front, and near the rear of the shaft.

[Cliff R]

Another reason to check your work using the intake open point at .050". You turn the engine in one direction only and don't have to worry about the lobe profile.......

[KEN CROCIE]

I had a cam from Isky that checked 7deg diff. #1 to #6 !

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by KEN CROCIE

I had a cam from Isky that checked 7deg diff. #1 to #6 !

That's why I degree more than one cylinder. If you have problems with one camshaft, send it back.

Have problems with every camshaft in that engine, get the lifter bores trued.

[BierManVA]

Originally Posted by 70GS455

Which method did you use to measure? Equal distances down from either side of max lift, or cam card .050 numbers or advertised numbers?

Is the lobe profiles non-symmetrical? If so, you will get different numbers depending on the method. And different opinions on which one is the best.

If it's a symmetric profile, no worries

Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk

I used 'equal distances down from either side of max lift'

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I took a quick look at some cloyes 9 way instruction and it seems like someone at cloyes does understand cam degreeing at all? They are referencing the cam from the crank. It should be the other way around!

https://www.cloyes.com/9-keyway-crank-sprockets/

I haven’t used their 9 way set. The last cloyes 3 way set I had was stated as +/-3 and moved the cam +\- 6. I shrugged it off at the time, and figured the 9 way did as it was supposed to moving the timing in small stepped.

Like the guys said. double check!!!

I must have missed my cup of Joe yesterday morning. Terrible flood, my suite didn’t come in from the cleaners, Locus!! It wasn’t my fault!

Actually it was my fault, the cloyes instructions are correct.

The 3 way Cloyes set I had once moved timing +\- 6* ( it may have been +/- 8 now that I am thinking about it).. I have had different brands do the exact same thing, so I never assume the timing sets do as they say anymore, and I just plan on getting the collection of stepped cam keys out. That one set from Cloyes was older, I am still trying to make sense of it, and it had the same basic instructions. Hopefully they have it all sorted out now.

If you did the equidistant .050” from each side of max lift your golden. Run it.

[KEN CROCIE]

Check lifter bores for roundness. 50-60 yr. old engines tend to have oval lifter bores.

[BierManVA]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I must have missed my cup of Joe yesterday morning. Terrible flood, my suite didn’t come in from the cleaners, Locus!! It wasn’t my fault!

Actually it was my fault, the cloyes instructions are correct.

The 3 way Cloyes set I had once moved timing +\- 6* ( it may have been +/- 8 now that I am thinking about it).. I have had different brands do the exact same thing, so I never assume the timing sets do as they say anymore, and I just plan on getting the collection of stepped cam keys out. That one set from Cloyes was older, I am still trying to make sense of it, and it had the same basic instructions. Hopefully they have it all sorted out now.

If you did the equidistant .050” from each side of max lift your golden. Run it.

Well, as seems to be the case with these things. I set everything back up, verified TDC, positioned the timing wheel, set up the dial gauge and boom! Everything came out fine. Rechecked...still fine. . Please don't ask me wth happened before. LOL. I guess sometimes it is better to take a day or so off and come back at it.

Thanks for all the info guys.

[Murf]

Not to change the topic but, to the OP what degree wheel are you using & would you recommend it?

To everyone, what degree wheel set-up do you use, recommend?
I think I am going to check the installed position of the cab in my wife’s car over the winter. I’m not satisfied with the way it runs and should have a degree wheel anyway.

Thanks
Murf


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[Bill Eveland]

I use the Moroso 11" wheel. But I cut the center out and drilled holes so it bolts in place of the pulleys on the balancer. Simple as setting up a pulley on the wheel centered and mark the holes needed and open up the middle.

I had problems with it moving just bolted to the end of the crank and felt this was a much better way to prevent that.