[Cameano]

Last night, I sat down and started gathering numbers for an EFI conversion. I did a lot of pricing on Ebay, seems like a good place to start. Came up right around $2k, without any machine work or shipping costs, which could be exaggerated for me. (Try $110 for a recent fan shroud and package tray delivery.) So realistically, I could be looking at closer to $2500 or so to have a good system. Megasquirt controller, FAST LS1 90mm tb and 4bbl intake adapter (or a good 4bbl style billet tb), Tomahawk intake, fuel rails, 30lb/hr injectors, in-tank pump, etc.

Anyone out there put together a similar system, with good results, for any considerably cheaper cost, minus shipping? We don't have squat for decent junkyards around here, so scrounging parts there isn't going to be very productive.

Also, for those who've done EFI, what real world city mpg numbers are you posting? If I could see 12mpg or so, I'd probably do it. FWIW, on this island, traffic is always congested enough that you will see highway numbers maybe 10% of your time on the road, so it's negligible. City driving is what counts the most. Driveability is not an issue right now, as I do a decent job at tuning carbs. I know I can tweak the EFI to run even better, though, and that'd be nice, considering that my wife likes driving the car too. The car is not a daily driver, rather it's going to be a weekend car, with maybe a trip down the quarter mile every now and then, to quiet the kids I work with who drive STI's and EVO's.

So, cheaper to DIY, or maybe go with the Edelbrock or Holley setup, even though they aren't complete packages, but everything's there? Holley has a universal kit out there, but when I search for success stories with Holley's computer, I don't have much luck. Could just be that people won't take the time to praise a product, but will dedicate a lot of time to degrade one. Summit has the universal Holley kit for a decent price, compared to what I'd be paying to gather stuff, but I'd still be short an intake and fuel pump. And if the controller isn't the easiest to work with, an upgrade to the Megasquirt controller would put me up to and beyond what I can piece together a setup for.

Holley MPFI Universal system

Thoughts? Thanks guys,

[wheelspin]

NOT cost effective, considering that your 12 mpg goal is obtainable with your current combo and a tweaked Q-Jet from Cliff Ruggles. That is, unless you leave every light in a cloud of burning rubber .

Les

[Cameano]

Originally Posted by wheelspin

NOT cost effective, considering that your 12 mpg goal is obtainable with your current combo and a tweaked Q-Jet from Cliff Ruggles. That is, unless you leave every light in a cloud of burning rubber .

Les

Oops, left out one more goal here. A little more eye candy for the local cruise nights. I hear you on the Q-jet, but I've got an itch to scratch, for something that's been on my list for a few years. Now that parts and options are more abundant, and prices are coming down, it seems like the thing to do. Plus, with the LS1 tb setup, it'd be easier to boost someday.

[Hammered]

I can identify with the itch part of it . A very rough estimate would include:

Super Victor Intake & Fuel Rails $360
budget injectors (8) $280
Megasquirt & Harness?
Wideband 02 for MS?
Fuel Tank Conv and pump $200
Regulator $80
Electronic distributor conversion $80
Holley 1000 cfm Throttle Body $450
Fittings & Misc. $300
TOTAL: $

There is a fellow on this board that posts under the name of Ollie who is doing a conversion using a stock computer. I really like this approach because you can pick up stock computers for about $100 at most autoparts stores. An aftermarket system, whether it's an MS or Accel like mine would present a major challenge if it were to crap out far from home. I believe all the systems use OEM style sensors of one type or another.

I went all out on mine and am tuning it at the moment. The car won't be roadworthy till midsummer at the earliest so I can't help with driveability but it sure starts and idles easy in these freezing temps we have now!

[GoatDr]

Check out Butler's new stuff and they have a complete bolt on EFI system for $3500. Here it is: http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/new_products.html

[Cameano]

Hammered, beautiful car you've got there. Nice job on the polishing, too. You mention the distributor conversion. Is that a regular mechanical advance/vacuum advance setup still? Conversion is only the Hall Effect sensor? I was poking around looking for something you could customize timing curves with, but it doesn't look like anything's available at the moment. The Megasquirt+spark V3.0 can control ignition curves, if you have the distributor for it. Maybe I could have one built, by one of the custom distributor guys out there.

Ddonnelly, nice setup there, but I'm the kind of guy who'd rather do it the hard way, just to say I did it myself. I build my own engines, trannys, rearends, do my own body/paint, etc. Call me a glutton for punishment, but I enjoy the learning curve, and being able to say "I did it myself." *Except the distributor mentioned above. Cheaper to have someone who knows source the small parts, do it.

[LeMans70Sport]

Darrin,

I put my MS EFI system in for around $1100. I used 32#/hr injectors from 2 Quad4 HO engines, $5 each, an Air Motive air valve for $75. It would have been even cheaper had I just modified the intake I had, used generic fuel rail stock, and gone with a junkyard fuel pump. With MS you can go distributorless using a Ford EDIS ignition system which also will get noticed.
I haven't checked my fuel mileage but the throttle resoponse is great and it drove all summer flawlessly. Just do it.

Steve

[LeMans70Sport]

Originally Posted by Cameano

Ddonnelly, nice setup there, but I'm the kind of guy who'd rather do it the hard way, just to say I did it myself. I build my own engines, trannys, rearends, do my own body/paint, etc. Call me a glutton for punishment, but I enjoy the learning curve, and being able to say "I did it myself." *Except the distributor mentioned above. Cheaper to have someone who knows source the small parts, do it.

I've also done all those things for the challenge and to say "I did it myself" but the real reason is I have little disposable income to pour into my car like other people in here (green with envy). The deal I have with my wife is only the overtime money goes into my car so I have to cut corners where I can. Next project is a 9" rear w/disk brakes for $800. Fiberglass front bumper and lower valance for $80 in materials.

[Cameano]

Originally Posted by LeMans70Sport

Darrin,

I put my MS EFI system in for around $1100. I used 32#/hr injectors from 2 Quad4 HO engines, $5 each, an Air Motive air valve for $75. It would have been even cheaper had I just modified the intake I had, used generic fuel rail stock, and gone with a junkyard fuel pump. With MS you can go distributorless using a Ford EDIS ignition system which also will get noticed.
I haven't checked my fuel mileage but the throttle resoponse is great and it drove all summer flawlessly. Just do it.

Steve

Steve, did you run a crank trigger for reference? How about the oil pump drive? Dummy plug like a GM diesel?

[krisr]

If you're interested to learn how efi works and how components work together also spinning your friends out that you actually BUILT your efi computer, go the DIY route. If you're not interested in constructing it or have next to no electrical component troubleshooting skills and just want to get something running, don't go DIY.

One thing I learnt about the DIY thing is only try to get 1 circuit running at a time, preferably the ignition circuit first!. You need a decent ignition map before you can start dialling in fuel requirements. Also try to use pieces that are a) local to you and b) something that has relatively the same power output as your engine, I'm trying to use as much LS1 parts as possible for those 2 reasons.

Price wise I think I have about $1500 in my DIY setup. That includes MS2-ECU, Tomahawk manifold, 42lb injectors, machined fuel rails, LS1 throttle body, fuel pump, adjustable regulator. I think I'll be finished for just over $2000 once I have the plenum made.

[Karch]

To add to LeMans70Sport...whew...too long of a name

The injectors will depend on what your realistic horsepower levels are. You can get a very good pump that will support 700 HP for as little as $135, brand new.

I am opting for the same pump sumped into the tank with a bolt in kit for about $225.

You can get by w/o purchasing a throttle body by adding a TPS switch to your carb...I have done this to save $$.

By the way, 42# injectors can be purchased for $150-$270 used-new....not many miles on the used ones.

I do not have mine done yet, but have most of it all figured out. Also, the Tomahawk is probably the easiest for the money to add injectors and rails.


Karch

[Cameano]

KrisR, I'm thinking of just buying a prebuilt MS controller off Ebay. Plenty of them there. I do hear you on building it, you'd definitely have a better, if not thorough understanding of it, and be able to troubleshoot easier. I do have a good working knowledge of EFI, have some books on both GM and Ford EEC-IV systems. In fact, back in the late 80's, I was looking into maybe trying to make a kit to retrofit the TPI from batch fire to SFI. Then GM did it themselves, so I dropped that idea. I just don't work well with small parts.

Also, I found one seller on Ebay who makes the plenum you need for your setup. He does custom stuff for people too, looking at his feedback. Check out the pics of the stuff he does in this auction.

EFI Plenum

Karch, good ideas, I might have to go browse the local yards, see if I can't come up with something there after all. Is there a listing somewhere that'll show you what factory engines came equipped with, as far as the injectors?

[Jack Blum]

We built ours back in 1997. It's welded up out of simple steel plate and then we covered the weld with epoxy and sanded them all smooth.

I first used a kit from BDS (Blower Drive Services) out here in CA. It included an Accel CPU, O2, MAP, Water Temp, TPS sensors and the wiring harness and injectors 36lb/hr, back pressure regulator and a Paxton EFI fuel pump. It was about $2200 for the kit back in 97. I am using an Edlebrock 58mm throttle body. It's the same one used for a late model LS2 Firebird. My web site has more details. We were developing an EFI only manifold for Pontiac's but progress has all but stopped.

I have recently upgraded to the FAST box and 45lb/hr injectors. I wanted the new box because it will run closed-loop all the time and came with the new 5 wire wide-band O2 sensor.

Can't give you any mpg numbers for around town but, driving the last Silver State Classic for 90 miles at an average speed of 135mph I got 14.5mpg. But then again I have a .62 overdrive and a 2.78 rear gear.

[krisr]

There is a guy on the east coast over there, Jerry at DIY Autotune. I've used him a couple times for parts and thoroughly recommend him. If you are thinking the Megasquirt route, i'd stick with the Megasquirt-II v3.0 unless you have a specific reason to stick with MS1. (MSNS-e?)

The MS2 processors are faster and with the up and coming router board, sequential injection and coil-per-cylinder won't be far away.

That plenum in your link is similar to what i'm going to fabricate. Except i'm going to experiment with plenum volume a bit. I hear that 1:1 ratio between capacity and plenum volume is good for the street, 2:1 if you're forced fed.

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm - May help with injector matching & flow data.

[Hammered]

Thanks Cameano. I wouldn't do the polishing again but it does have quite an impact. Speaking of impact, unless you live in an area ripe with upscale hotrodders, putting EFI of any sort on a traditional Pontiac will have impact.

Ollie should be chiming in here and he can tell you more about the distributor conversion. From what I remember, he modified a Pontiac HEI with a later EFI control module and locked out all of the advance features. You could definitely do it yourself and my conversion estimate included a distributor so the parts to do your own would be about half I guess.

As for an intake, the Tomahawk is by far a more attractive piece unless you want to go to the trouble I did. However, the E-manifolds are $328 and $399 respectively for the Torker and Victor versions WITH fuel rails. The Tomahawk is going for about $220 and fuel rails would run you about $40 plus machining for both. Another thing to remember is that the Torker E-manifold requires the use of Edlebrock's pico injectors which you won't find cheap. It packages very nicely though and it's the one that I have and also pictured on Butler's site.

Karch: What are you doing for an IAC on your TB/carb? Are you going with an external unit? I know my car won't cold start without it. Also, are you going with the Tanks Inc. kit for your fuel tank? I've been interested in hearing feedback from someone on it as I may do another EFI system but take a less costly route.

John

[LeMans70Sport]

Originally Posted by Cameano

Steve, did you run a crank trigger for reference? How about the oil pump drive? Dummy plug like a GM diesel?

I'll be mounting my crank trigger wheel (36-1 Wheel) off the front of the crank pulley using a fabricated aluminum adapter. I plan on cutting the old HEI housing and making it a dummy plug. I'll have to figure out how to support the pump drive shaft at the cut off area when I get that far.

[Ollie]

I heard someone mention my name, Hi Hammered. Hi everyone.

As Hammered said I am building an EFi using a GM 7730 ECM. The Edelbrock Victor EFI manifold, fuel rails and injectors. A Painless wire harness, Accufab 4150 throttle body.
Converted the distributor to a 7 pin module for computor control using about $125.00 in new over the countr parts. If anyone is interested in converting a HEI to computor control, I have setp by step instructions with good photo documention.
the reason I went with a 4150 tb is this is going in a 79 Trans AM I wanted to keep the shaker.
Anyone wanting to build a EFI using the GM ECM check out this site
Especialy the DIY, DFI and ECM, and the TPI forms there are a ton of hacked codes and usefull links.
www.Thirdgen.org

[krisr]

I dig your incap 7pin hei conversion!!! I'm running 7pin HEI with my Megasquirt and have been considering / thinking about attempting converting my MSD Probillet distributor to have the module inside the cap. At the moment i've just got the module on an alloy plate mounted to the firewall.

PS. Any information you can share about the distributor conversion, i'm all ears & eyes

[Ollie]

OOps, the secound photo is incorrect. I wanted to post this photo showing the advance lockout.

[Ollie]

Krisr

Yes I have step by step instructions and detailed photos. I will have to down size the phots as you can see in the last post they are quite large. I tryed to upload some more but that is all that would up load.
I also have all the NAPA part numbers.