[62posbonny]

I have 2 cars now using the Tanks, Inc tank and Walbro 255lph pump. I am very pleased with both, and will agree with the above post about the fuel level sender. Spend the extra to get their "floatless" sender, it bounces far less.

As far as an EFI goes, you have so many choices these days. Sniper is going to be basic and straight forward, but I don't like the ECU being built in to the throttle Body and constantly under heat and vibration stress. I have an Edelbrock Pro Flo 4 and it runs and drives very nicely, and the fact it comes with a manifold and distributor makes the $2200 pretty comparable while giving sequential port injection. Then there is the Holley Terminator x Stealth, which is a beautiful system and gives you ultimate tuneability when paired with their dual sync distributor and will also control a modern overdrive transmission if you go that way in the future. If money is no issue, going custom with an EFI intake, injectors matched to your power level, rails, a 1000cfm throttle body, dual sync and the Terminator X ECU would be just about as good as you can get.

My only minor complaint about my Pro Flo 4 is that I would like to have more detailed control over fuel and spark curves than the dumbed down tables they offer. That said, it drives amazingly and I don't know if I could really achieve better results if I had a Terminator system running it.

[Scott65]

I went to a 170° thermostat to keep mine out of warm up enrichment during the winter. I'm fortunate to be able to control where my "learn" is , and the warm up enrichment. But most of these systems default to 160° with good reason. The functions will fight each other if there's no breakpoint. So for me, it makes sense to run it marginally hotter. It's really better for engine wear anyways.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 62posbonny

I have 2 cars now using the Tanks, Inc tank and Walbro 255lph pump. I am very pleased with both, and will agree with the above post about the fuel level sender. Spend the extra to get their "floatless" sender, it bounces far less.

As far as an EFI goes, you have so many choices these days. Sniper is going to be basic and straight forward, but I don't like the ECU being built in to the throttle Body and constantly under heat and vibration stress. I have an Edelbrock Pro Flo 4 and it runs and drives very nicely, and the fact it comes with a manifold and distributor makes the $2200 pretty comparable while giving sequential port injection. Then there is the Holley Terminator x Stealth, which is a beautiful system and gives you ultimate tuneability when paired with their dual sync distributor and will also control a modern overdrive transmission if you go that way in the future. If money is no issue, going custom with an EFI intake, injectors matched to your power level, rails, a 1000cfm throttle body, dual sync and the Terminator X ECU would be just about as good as you can get.

My only minor complaint about my Pro Flo 4 is that I would like to have more detailed control over fuel and spark curves than the dumbed down tables they offer. That said, it drives amazingly and I don't know if I could really achieve better results if I had a Terminator system running it.

There is a member here that is a good friend of mine that "was" running one of those Edelbrock Pro Flow 4 setups on his car. He didn't like it much at all, mainly because of the limited tuning it offered, and Edelbrock wasn't much help on the matter either.
He ended up pulling it all off, I think he has a terminator setup on it now. But if yours is running good and doesn't need much tuning, might leave well enough alone as is.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Scott65

I went to a 170° thermostat to keep mine out of warm up enrichment during the winter. I'm fortunate to be able to control where my "learn" is , and the warm up enrichment. But most of these systems default to 160° with good reason. The functions will fight each other if there's no breakpoint. So for me, it makes sense to run it marginally hotter. It's really better for engine wear anyways.

I have all my warm up enrichment done by 140 degrees as I find no need for it beyond that. Once the engine is at or above 140 it starts and idles fine on a basic idle AFR without any assistance from the enrichment tables.

[62posbonny]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

There is a member here that is a good friend of mine that "was" running one of those Edelbrock Pro Flow 4 setups on his car. He didn't like it much at all, mainly because of the limited tuning it offered, and Edelbrock wasn't much help on the matter either.
He ended up pulling it all off, I think he has a terminator setup on it now. But if yours is running good and doesn't need much tuning, might leave well enough alone as is.

Mine did take a few days of tuning to get to where I liked it. Getting the timing curve where the engine wanted it made the engine so much more eager for lack of a better term. A few people really dont like the progressive 4 barrel throttle body and prefer a "snappier" throttle response, and I get that. Does your buddy want to sell his? I could be in the market and like them enough to pick up another.

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

There is a member here that is a good friend of mine that "was" running one of those Edelbrock Pro Flow 4 setups on his car. He didn't like it much at all, mainly because of the limited tuning it offered, and Edelbrock wasn't much help on the matter either.
He ended up pulling it all off, I think he has a terminator setup on it now. But if yours is running good and doesn't need much tuning, might leave well enough alone as is.

Sequential Port injection vs. Throttle body?

No hard decision there unless cost is a serious issue. I am sure Eddy took a hard look at their potential customer base and realized plug-n-play is the way to go. Pick the right map and let the car learn.

[62posbonny]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

Sequential Port injection vs. Throttle body?

No hard decision there unless cost is a serious issue. I am sure Eddy took a hard look at their potential customer base and realized plug-n-play is the way to go. Pick the right map and let the car learn.

Edelbrock only has fuel tables for idle, cruise, and power. They also have pump shot and duration and decal fuel cutoff. Tuning seems illogical because "power" table doesnt hit until around 70% throttle so even moderate accelleration is hitting your cruise AFR target. I found that I had to richen my cruise to almost 14:1 to be happy, but still achieved 16mpg at 3k rpm and 70mph with my 462, TH400 3.23 gears in a 63 Catalina.

These are the reasons the Terminator ECU has superiority with full modern tuneability. With Holley, Terminator is the ECU, they do use it on their throttle body units, but also sell as a stand alone to put together your own sequential port setup.

[Tom Vaught]

Lean Cruise does not buy you very much in additional fuel economy. Here's why:

14.7 is stoichiometric, where all of the fuel in the induction charge should be happy for emissions and very good f.e.

A stoichiometric amount[2] or stoichiometric ratio of a reagent is the optimum amount or ratio where, assuming that the reaction proceeds to completion:

All of the reagent is consumed
There is no deficiency of the reagent
There is no excess of the reagent.

Lean Cruise, as in ratios above 14.7, make NOx and buy you nothing for additional Fuel Economy for any Pontiac Engine Produced vehicle, imo. Even the better Aftermarket systems "Fuel Maps" are not equal to the most basic OEM Emissions type calibrations.

But I agree the Terminator ECU systems do have more buttons to push.
It is a very good aftermarket ECU system though.

Tom V.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Even the better Aftermarket systems "Fuel Maps" are not equal to the most basic OEM Emissions type calibrations.


Tom V.

What are the OEMs doing that produces better fuel economy in their fuel maps? On a basic level.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 62posbonny

Mine did take a few days of tuning to get to where I liked it. Getting the timing curve where the engine wanted it made the engine so much more eager for lack of a better term. A few people really dont like the progressive 4 barrel throttle body and prefer a "snappier" throttle response, and I get that. Does your buddy want to sell his? I could be in the market and like them enough to pick up another.

He might, if he still has it. Could PM him here and see.

Ugh I can't remember his user name. I'll shoot him a text and see.

Edit: okay I checked with Mike. He still has it but he's keeping it to use on an LS engine.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

What are the OEMs doing that produces better fuel economy in their fuel maps? On a basic level.

Nothing really. I used to tune LS engines with HP tuner and it's all very similar with the exception that the aftermarket has made it a little easier to understand and added self learn capabilities.

Even the OEM stuff wasn't optimized for best MPG. There were other things you could do like remove the added fuel for cat converter over temp (once the converters were removed), you could delay PE that always seemed to come in extremely early on those factory tunes (trucks engaged PE with just 20% throttle). Also the factory tunes use a very fat ~11.5 AFR at WOT, probably to keep it safe and less warranty claims. However that's a bit too safe. So the fact that PE would come in really early and the AFR's were in the mid 11's really sacrificed some mpg, especially climbing long grades, or if you were driving a manual trans, it was pretty easy to tip into PE mode just running normal through the gears.
Timing tables were also extremely tame with the OEM tunes. Some of the truck LS engines would have timing tables in the single digits......no kidding. The F-bodies would have a pretty lazy curve that peaked around 18 or 20 degrees. On the dyno they would make best power around 28 though.

After all the tuning it was pretty routine to get over 30 mpg in a 4th gen F-body and pick up about a 1/2 second at the track, no other changes.

[jimib]

I have not had chance to look over the newest post. I've been considering my options and decided to go with an EFI fuel tank rather than a surge tank.

I received tech help from Tanks, Inc. today and the list below is what I have in my E-cart. The total comes to $786. I guess the only other part I need is the Holley Sniper. Before I buy what’s in my list, perhaps you experienced guys could look it over to see if there’s anything else I need.
Thank you.

Fuel Injection Tank (#TM37H-T) $299
Fuel Pump (#GPA-4) $220
Fuel Line kit (U-LINE-KIT) $185
Pump Relay and Wiring Kit (RLYFP) $39
Sending Unit (TAN-GML) $35
Clamps (R650980) $8

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by jimib

I have not had chance to look over the newest post. I've been considering my options and decided to go with an EFI fuel tank rather than a surge tank.

I received tech help from Tanks, Inc. today and the list below is what I have in my E-cart. The total comes to $786. I guess the only other part I need is the Holley Sniper. Before I buy what’s in my list, perhaps you experienced guys could look it over to see if there’s anything else I need.
Thank you.

Fuel Injection Tank (#TM37H-T) $299
Fuel Pump (#GPA-4) $220
Fuel Line kit (U-LINE-KIT) $185
Pump Relay and Wiring Kit (RLYFP) $39
Sending Unit (TAN-GML) $35
Clamps (R650980) $8

I've never used their fuel line kit so I'm not sure what that might consist of. I've always built my own fuel lines the way I want them and order that stuff separate.

Won't need a pump relay and wire kit if you're going EFI right away. The EFI kits come with a pump relay already wired into the EFI harness and 25-30 feet of wire to reach the tank. That's how Holley does it anyway.

On the sending unit I prefer the floatless unit they sell. It's more accurate and doesn't exhibit the problems that are associated with the aftermarket swing arm unit they sell.

Usually by the time I'm done, with tank, pump, lines, sending unit.....I'm in it for just under a grand $$$

[62posbonny]

if you are getting the Sniper 550-510k it comes with fittings, fuel lines and fuel filter, so no need for the Tanks Inc fuel line kit. I have both types of sending unit and would agree the T-GML floatless at $99 is a nice upgrade over the TAN-GML at $35. Looking at the sniper instruction manual, it shows that it has a 15amp relayed fuel pump output, so you wont need the relay kit on your list. 15amp is more than enough to drive the 255lph pump. Other than that, you should have your bases covered.

[jimib]

Originally Posted by 62posbonny

if you are getting the Sniper 550-510k it comes with fittings, fuel lines and fuel filter, so no need for the Tanks Inc fuel line kit. I have both types of sending unit and would agree the T-GML floatless at $99 is a nice upgrade over the TAN-GML at $35. Looking at the sniper instruction manual, it shows that it has a 15amp relayed fuel pump output, so you wont need the relay kit on your list. 15amp is more than enough to drive the 255lph pump. Other than that, you should have your bases covered.

OK, thank you and I've modified my list. Regarding the T-GML, I am choosing the o to 90 Ohms, the next option is 5 inches through 24 inches. Not sure what to choose here.

[grivera]

Originally Posted by jimib

OK, thank you and I've modified my list. Regarding the T-GML, I am choosing the o to 90 Ohms, the next option is 5 inches through 24 inches. Not sure what to choose here.

On the fuel tank page, it indicates tube sender length for a 66-67 GTO tank is 6".

https://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/p...rod/prd419.htm

[djustice]

I also had problems with my tank sending unit , mine was a hyperfuel kit, but they use tanks inc tank and sending unit.
For som reason the sending unit only works intermittent when full , after i get to about 1/2 a tank it works correct with no issues, i am guessing a partially bad rehostat, it is the TAN-GML type.
I chased that problem for a long time, gronding my tank to the chassi with a strap, running a full length wire direct from sending unit to the gauge, and finally a brand new speedhut fuel gauge programmable with any resistance.
But stil the same issue. i now have a stainless S5 floatless sender lying around, i just dread draining and dropping the tank again.

[67Fbird]

wow almost $1K in the fuel stuff....I couldn't do that. I modded my tank with a LS fuel pump bucket (95 F-body...IIRC) and a racetronix pump swap. al lin for about $250

[Formulajones]

Yeah the floatless sender is the way to go. I've never had any luck with their aftermarket swing arm sender and was never really a fan of the universal cut to fit nature of it anyway.

Yep you can expect about a grand to do an entire fuel system with tank, pump, lines, fittings, etc... Most of these old cars I find really could use new tanks anyway.

The other alternative that I like is the Aeromotive Stealth drop in fuel pump that can be used with most existing tanks.

[jimib]

Originally Posted by 67Fbird

wow almost $1K in the fuel stuff....I couldn't do that. I modded my tank with a LS fuel pump bucket (95 F-body...IIRC) and a racetronix pump swap. al lin for about $250

LOL, I said nearly the same thing to a friend, "$1000 in parts before the EFI carb".

I like your modification and now I'm thinking of trying that. Going with a surge tank would probably give me no less or no more HP, would be much easier and cheaper. That said, I'll most likely go the expensive route.