[justincampbell]

Ok. I realize that some of the things that were done back in the day are frowned upon now. That is why I felt compelled to ask this question.

I have a 16' car trailer that I occasionally pull(maybe 8 or 10 times a year). I have also been looking at a 1964 Grand Prix recently.
The question is: Can I pull my trailer with the Grand Prix?

I have seen tons of pictures of this from the '60s, but I haven't seen anybody do this now for some time.
I'm trying to justify buying the Grand Prix instead of spending the money on a pickup. LOL

[Bills Auto Works]

Without specifics I.E. : how much the trailer weighs empty (my 20ft Featherlite only weighs 1475 lbs empty) or what car you will be hauling, I can only give general information.

Beef up the rear suspension of the GP with heavier springs, coil over shocks or even air shocks & as long as the trailer has brakes & the GP has a brake controller, you should be fine.

You will get a bunch of "Nay Sayers" bashing you , but in the end it comes down to what you are comfortable doing. Those that frown upon things that were just fine in the past are probably complaining from their safe spaces! Remember in the old days, this was a common occurrence Take a look at 60's & 70's pictures from drag strips, the tow vehicles were for the most part NOT Dually's or even pickups

God Bless
Bill
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...closed.614419/

[67drake]

External transmission cooler probably wouldn’t be a bad idea too. I’d do it if the trailer wasn’t too heavy, as Bill said.

[Sirrotica]

Since I was of driving age in the time frame you're asking about, the cars will pull a trailer with a car on it. The biggest limiting factor is a trailer hitch that attaches at least 4 points to the rear frame, since the frame aft of the rear axle on the cars is lightweight compared to a truck frame. It is dependant on the trunk floor, and body mounts for rigidity. Having a sturdy hitch will compensate for the rather weak frame structure behind the rear axle.

Tongue weight is also going to be a factor, as the rear springs of a car will not support anywhere near the tongue weight that truck springs will.

You can add airbags to the car springs to support more tongue weight, or use a hitch with torsion bars, called a weight distribution hitch, that pushes the load further towards the front of the cars chassis.

The transmission in a 64 GP isn't really the ultimate for trailer pulling duty. The slim jim was barely adequate to move the cars around, let alone tow a trailer, with another car on it. I'll add that most people that towed cars back in that era, used a tow bar, and flat towed their other car, car trailers were for the elite back then.

One other point is 4 wheel drum brakes on the GP, they will always be prone to fading. The stock system is activated by a single master cylinder, if you have a hydraulic failure, you're pretty much along for the ride. I would also want a trailer with brakes on both axles to preserve the tow vehicles brakes as much as possible.

By the time you make the modifications to the car, you might justify the purchase of a truck that will pull a trailer with little, to no modifications.

I'm not trying to disuade you, just laying out the facts that you would have to address on a 64 GP to pull a 5-6000 lb loaded trailer. I use all of my cars to pull trailers, and tow dollys, people really look at you funny when you're pulling a 92 Grand Am, on a tow dolly, with a Vibe down the interstate......

I've also used my 2005 GTO to pull a tow dolly with a 97 T/A on it, as well as an enclosed 10X6 foot trailer, with all our T shirt paraphenalia when we used to sell T shirts at many of the Pontiac events. A tow dolly is a lot lighter than a 16 foot trailer is, the reason I own them, rather than a trailer. I installed air bags in the rear springs of the GTO, because it squatted too much when hauling the loaded trailer.

Every vehicle I own has a trailer hitch, and I use them to tow with, but I try to match the horse, with the cart.

I also own a K3500 dually to haul anything that is going to overtax the cars. As Clint Eastwood/Harry Calahan said, "A man's gotta know his limitations", the same thing goes for your tow vehicles.

[Goatracer1]

I used my 1963 Bonneville to pull our 24 foot travel trailer with no problems. Brakes should not be a problem because in most states the trailer is required to have brakes. If your tow car's brakes fail you should be able to stop with the trailer's brakes. Not quickly but you can stop. It happened to me one time going down hill towing with an old truck. Also a big deciding factor when towing is frontal area. A car on an open trailer is easier to pull than a car in an enclosed trailer. I used a weight Distibution hitch with a sway control. My car was stock and in good "driver" condition. The only concern I might have is the condition of your transmission. I would have it checked by someone familiar with that trans and if okay add a big trans cooler. Good luck.

[Bills Auto Works]

My bad for not remembering that our GP's have Slim Jims in them!

Definitely an aftermarket trans cooler. The Mishimoto's are the best out there, but they will set you back 300+ dollars. I know, I have them on both transport trucks

God Bless
Bill
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...closed.614419/

[67drake]

And you don’t want to be pulling with highway gears, like 2.56 or something. That transmission with be slipping like all get out.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Goatracer1

I used my 1963 Bonneville to pull our 24 foot travel trailer with no problems. Brakes should not be a problem because in most states the trailer is required to have brakes. If your tow car's brakes fail you should be able to stop with the trailer's brakes. Not quickly but you can stop. It happened to me one time going down hill towing with an old truck. Also a big deciding factor when towing is frontal area. A car on an open trailer is easier to pull than a car in an enclosed trailer. I used a weight Distibution hitch with a sway control. My car was stock and in good "driver" condition. The only concern I might have is the condition of your transmission. I would have it checked by someone familiar with that trans and if okay add a big trans cooler. Good luck.

Ohio has, as most other states, requires trailer brakes over 2000# empty. That leaves a lot of tandem trailers that can go down the road with zero brakes. I see tandem trailer here all the time with no brakes whatsoever, so they are definitely out there. I wouldn't own one, nor tow one loaded, but a friend of mine is a landscape service owner that has been using a tandem landscape trailer, loaded 6-7 days a week all during the grass cutting season, for at least a decade with zero brakes, towing it with a 2500 dodge. He has a stack of used up rotors, and drums behind his garage to prove it.....LOL

He said he was going to have brakes installed on it when he had the suspension serviced a couple years ago, but there was a shortage of backing plate and drum assemblies, so it never got converted..............

Bonnevilles, and Star Chiefs had the 4 speed hydramatic transmission at that time, although it wasn't a TH400, it was light years ahead of the slim jim for durability.

1964 was the first year that the blocks had provisions for a starter mounting, so they can be changed over to a TH400 fairly easily. When I worked at the local Pontiac dealer, one of the mechanics blew the slim jim up in his 64 GP. He pulled it into the service department after work, and drove it home later that night with parts pirated from the wrecks the dealership kept around for parts salvage. Took the transmission, starter, and flywheel out of a 65 or later B body, and the conversion went pretty quick.

[justincampbell]

Thanks for all the replies!

I guess there are a few things I should have added to my original post.
The GP has been updated to a TH400 and it has a newer GM booster and dual master cylinder.
The trailer is an open pit trailer but it was built relatively heavy. I don't have a clue what the actual weight is.
Also, just as a point of reference regarding my 'normal' or 'OK', most of the miles I have pulled a trailer were with a 1/2 ton pickup or, for a while, a 4x4 Ford Ranger. I didn't get 'fancy' enough to have brakes on a trailer until about 5 years ago. LOL

If I do this, I'm thinking of stiffening the frame with a a couple pieces of steel plate and modifying a receiver hitch I have. I have one of the weight distributing hitches for this trailer, but never used it because the truck didn't really seem to need it.

[Stuart]

Also, your being in Iowa is to your benefit - it's (generally) a lot flatter there than if you lived in Colorado, for instance. I agree that taking care of the transmission and brakes will be the biggest things. Back in the day people pulled big trailers around with passenger cars all the time, so it can be done.

[Trulyvintage]

Look at this thread posted here
a few years ago - this was what
was available from Pontiac:

@ https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=608271

Things haven’t changed.

Your vehicle was not engineered
and designed as a tow platform.

It does not a manufacturer tow
capacity I could find - no upgrade
for towing was offered - it has no
provision for electric trailer brakes.

Do a google search - I could not find
any receiver hitch offered for sale
for your application.

When I checked U-Haul
this warning popped up:



Contrary to what has been posted - you
cannot legally modify your vehicle and
turn it into a tow vehicle without consequences.

Your auto insurance is subject to
cancellation - if you are involved
in any type of accident - you are
likely personally legally liable
for all damages.

Because I am an actual business
I carry insurance - I comply with
the law(s).


Jim

[TAKerry]

Valid points on both sides of this coin. Initially I would think you would be better with a truck. But.........................
As for the uhaul thing, I believe that is a disclaimer they use and have installed in their software to upsell a truck when one is not needed. I tried to rent a trailer when my son bought his 04 gto last summer. When I listed the info for my towing vehicle, my 2013 f 150, it kicked me out saying the vehicle was too old and not compatible. I ended up getting a trailer from a friend. My f150 is not an ideal tow vehicle but it works in a pinch. I would not want to tow with it everyday as it would prematurely wear out.

Another time a few years ago I had a heavy duty f150 (yes they made them that way) and again u hauls computer kicked me out because it said my truck was not compatible with the chevy cavalier I intended on picking up. Fortunately I knew the girl at the Uhaul desk and explained to her my truck had a heavy duty towing package. I regularly pulled a 7ooolb skid loader. She looked at the truck and the hitch settup and did an overide on the computer. Again no problem at all.

[justincampbell]

Originally Posted by TAKerry

Valid points on both sides of this coin. Initially I would think you would be better with a truck. But.........................
As for the uhaul thing, I believe that is a disclaimer they use and have installed in their software to upsell a truck when one is not needed. I tried to rent a trailer when my son bought his 04 gto last summer. When I listed the info for my towing vehicle, my 2013 f 150, it kicked me out saying the vehicle was too old and not compatible. I ended up getting a trailer from a friend. My f150 is not an ideal tow vehicle but it works in a pinch. I would not want to tow with it everyday as it would prematurely wear out.

Another time a few years ago I had a heavy duty f150 (yes they made them that way) and again u hauls computer kicked me out because it said my truck was not compatible with the chevy cavalier I intended on picking up. Fortunately I knew the girl at the Uhaul desk and explained to her my truck had a heavy duty towing package. I regularly pulled a 7ooolb skid loader. She looked at the truck and the hitch settup and did an overide on the computer. Again no problem at all.

I had the same thing with u-haul which is why what they say means zero to me. I also agree about towing all the time being bad for the F150. But, I don't tow enough to get too worked up about that.

[72projectbird]

Originally Posted by justincampbell

I had the same thing with u-haul which is why what they say means zero to me. I also agree about towing all the time being bad for the F150. But, I don't tow enough to get too worked up about that.

Back before I had my own trailer, UHaul always fought with me about what cars I could pull.

I was driving a K2500 at the time, and they wouldn't let me tow a 86 Monte Carlo SS

So I just told them it was a 93 Honda Civic lol

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Bills Auto Works

Take a look at 60's & 70's pictures from drag strips, the tow vehicles were for the most part NOT Dually's or even pickups

[Trulyvintage]

U-Haul rental agreements for
automobile related equipment
are specific to the vehicle being
towed because - like your personal
automobile insurance policy - they
calculate predictable damage and
loss based on risk.

If you lie about what your tow
vehicle is pulling one of their
rental trailers - if you lie about
the vehicle you are using one
of their trailers to transport …

Your rental agreement is voided.
U-Haul standard and optional
insurance is voided.

Your personal automobile insurance
is not going to cover you in the event
of loss or damage because you lied
on your rental agreement.

You are personally responsible
in the event of an accident
or a loss - if your U-Haul rental
equipment breaks down while
you are using it and roadside service
is dispatched - you may have your
rental equipment impounded
and be charged for any repairs.


Jim

[Sirrotica]

If you go back to the year I got my drivers license (1969) people towed anything, and everything with their cars. If you drove though a large subdivision back then you'd be hard pressed to see a truck parked in any of the driveways, today completely different story, likely 50% of the homes had an truck/SUV in the driveway.

The switch happened when the downsized cars with puny 4 cylinder engines came around in the early, to mid 70s when the first "gas crisis" came about. That's when the people started buying more trucks. This mindset has never left, and now most everyone thinks that the only vehicle that they can pull a load with is a truck.

During my lifetime I have pulled a lot of cars (flat towed, and tow dollys), and trailers, with cars, and not just across town, 100s of miles on interstates. Only one close call when a tow bar pivot bolt vibrated out one side of the tow bar, no collision, just a change your drawers moment.

I have a class A CDL and have also run 100s of thousands of miles with semis pulling 53 foot trailers, and hauled fuel in tankers. The main things that causes towing accidents is not checking equipment (the reason you do a pre trip when you're driving commercially, and should be done before you haul anything), and not leaving enough room between the car you're following, leaving yourself a escape route if there is an emergency, PLAN AHEAD.

I've been through dozens of driver safety courses while driving trucks commercially, the main themes for avoiding collisions while towing are the aforementioned.

If you've never been through a driver school, the Smith System is the standard for classroom education. It focuses on, space, visibility, and time. Space between you and other vehicles, visibility watching traffic around you, as well as you being seen (don't drive at dusk, or dawn, in rain/snow without you lights on), give yourself time to react to traffic. The Smith system is for all drivers driving anything, not just commercial drivers.

Rookies towing think they're still driving a car, and forget they have a bunch of added weight, and their rig is now at least twice as long as a single vehicle, and can't accelerate at the same rate as a single vehicle. These are the people that pull out in front of you from side streets with trailers. The general public have no idea of what a driver towing something is faced with, and compromised because they're towing a load.

When I hauled fuel in a tanker we were constantly going through driver improvement classes. Any major crash with a fuel tanker, you're not likely to walk away because of the fire hazard.

Don't be this guy:



Like anything else, common sense will help you avoid the OH SH!T moments. The key to avoiding most accidents is the nut holding on to the wheel, not the nut holding the wheel on, not so much the equipment, it's the drivers input, and knowing the limits of what they're driving.

If towing with a truck made you safe, there wouldn't be so many wrecked trucks, and trailers in salvage yards.

[jerry455]

When I went to pick up a 1976 Firebird, from a member here, bober, in 2018. U Haul would not let me rent a car trailer from them because I was going to use my 2018 Colorado. It is capable of towing 7,000 lbs. I borrowed a 2500 HD Silverado instead. I was going about 4 hours or so of freeway trailering. I regularly pull a 22' travel trailer with the Colorado. I get it that they are cautious as I work for GM , in Engineering Analysis, working with GM Legal in product litigation and you wouldn't believe what people sue us for and what they trailer.

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Trulyvintage

It does not a manufacturer tow
capacity I could find

If we go by vehicle ratings alone, even a tiny S10
comes across as the obvious winner. Despite the
GP having more weight and a longer wheelbase
(I'd pick the big car in a heartbeat). Ratings were
never all encompassing, apples and orangutans.

[Sirrotica]

Although the fifth wheel, and gooseneck style trailers are no where near as popular as bumper pull trailers, they are many times safer, and easier to control than bumper pull trailers. Especially for bigger payloads.

Just consider an average tandem axle semi tractor will weigh roughly a minumum of 10,500, and a maximum of 24,500. The 53 foot trailer loaded can weigh between 55,500 and 68,500. you're able to pull a trailer up to 2 1/2 times heavier than the tractor, yep, a much safer way to tow, but of course, more costly in the beginning.

If my time doesn't run out on this planet too soon, I intend on building a fifth wheel, air ride, kneeling car trailer, (needs no ramps) for myself, but too many projects outrank it currently...........

Having towed many loads, many miles, the fifth wheel/gooseneck is a much better rig than a bumper pull trailer. If you've only towed with a bumper pull trailer, the difference is amazing the first time you use the other style.