[imposter]

same SFT for 20+ years 3 maybe 4 adjustments over that timeframe all crower valvetrain and OG TFX cam

[pippintook]

Many moons ago, I built a two basic street 455s
- build #1 - crane ram air iv blueprint HFT cam and rhoads hdy lifters (71 455HO intake, Holley 800cfm SB dbl pump, 62 heads, headers)
- build #2 - HO racing HC-02 HFT cam and rhoads hdy lifters (edel performer, 800cfm qjet, 96 heads, headers)

About 15? yrs ago I built a 78 street 400 (very basic - stock 6X heads, intake, carb with headers) that used Summit Racing 2801 cam and Summit hyd lifters. Had a lobe go flat on this build.

I was paranoid about cam going flat and the potential cost to fix/repair, therefore on the last build I did, 13-14 yrs ago? (stroker 400, 4.25 cast crank, eagle rods, cast 78 intake, 78 qjet, 6x heads done by SD Perf), I used an SD Perf roller "stump puller" cam and comp hyd roller lifters. I also used good pushrods,crower roller rockers. I cant recall exactly what the prices were - but I think like cam was $400-500 and comp rollers were $600-700? crower rockers were $700? I think heads done by SD Perf were about $2500? Had no issues with the cam on this build. This build was very pricey then - plus prices higher now.

If doing another motor - I have thought about kinda going back to my more basic/budget street 455 builds - use a HFT cam and rhoads lifters. Say, use a stock unported head (like 16 or 62s) , good valve springs - but stock rocker arms. Though I am not sure which cam to use - or even what is available - keep hearing and seeing so many HFT cam issues. I am not sure - if rhoads lifters are available or what is the current recommended HFT lifter. This 455 basic street build
might only make 400hp - but still tons of torque and lots of fun to drive and save a few bucks.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 67Lemons

That’s kind of my point, either pay the top dollar for the most expensive rollers or according to the six page thread on the new Evolutions once you figure out what the proper preload is that seems to be a moving target from the manufacturer buy some extra cartridges “just in case”

It’s almost 2025 & we’re dealing with either paying stupid money for lifters, guessing from a large manufacturer or worrying about flat lobes, no wonder guys switch to LS motors, what a sad state of affairs for us as Pontiac lovers.

It's not just Pontiac, it's all brands. This is not a cheap hobby, especially when it comes to building engines and using good quality parts. Yeah it's 2025 and this stuff is not going to get any cheaper as time passes. Bidenomics didn't help things either.

Just as an example, I just finished a 327 sbc build. Considered by many to be the cheapest engine on the planet to build with huge aftermarket support. Well if you don't want to use ching chong parts, things aren't so cheap anymore. I used AFR heads, 6" Molnar rods, custom JE pistons, Bullet hydraulic roller with HYlift lifters, Crower rockers, etc....... It was $14,000 when I was all done. FOR A 327!!!! And I already had the block and crank laying around. It's not a race engine, just a nice street driver that made good power on the dyno and is daily driven. But,,,,,,it's all high quality parts, I'm confident it will give me many years of reliable service without complaint. There is nothing in that engine that I even remotely worry about.

That's how I approach every engine build here. Not that I'm proud it cost that much, that's just how things are these days. 10 years ago I could build that same engine for about $6000. It's not a poor mans game anymore.

So yeah, if you don't want a custom built engine, I can see your point, and it's why LS engines and even crate engines are becoming extremely popular now. Although I admit I'm pretty sick of seeing an LS in every damn car known to man now. But it's the environment we've created.

Just to give you another example. I have a 502 BBC crate sitting here fresh. I was going to make a 540 out of it with AFR heads. After pricing it all out with a nice rotating assembly, $4200 cylinder heads, nice roller valve train etc....it was going to set me back about $15,000 to make an easy 700hp with a mild street friendly pump gas engine build. I was contemplating back and forth and then ran across a Blue Print 598 crate engine, and they had a 10% off sale. It made 786HP and 772TQ on the dyno and 91 octane and came with a 3 year 50,000 mile warranty for $12,995!!!! I can't build it for that, let alone have a warranty when I'm done. Which one makes more sense? So yeah, I bought the 598 and never looked back. So far a fantastic engine with great street manors. I could even afford to upgrade some stuff, maybe pump up the power and reliablity and still come in cheaper than a custom build. So there is good argument for crate engines as well.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by P@blo

Retro rollers will be OK for low mileage applications that get a lot of attention. Failure rates support support this fact.

Solves some problems causes others that have not been resolved. Buy buy buy they will sort it out...

That's honestly not the whole story. That may be the case with some of these cheap $500 rollers that people keep buying, and probably why you keep hearing about it. But not the case or what I've seen with the higher end better quality stuff out there and from what local well respected engine shops are telling me. The problem is cost, and I completely understand that part. But to keep buying the cheap stuff and then come on here and complain about a problem doesn't make sense either.

Like I said I've got some of these retro lifters still in service after nearly 25 years in 600+ HP engines using 150-160 lbs. on the seat and never had a valve cover off with 10's of thousands of miles on them to boot. They don't need attention. Just have to buy the decent quality stuff to start with. Yeah the price sucks, I agree. It is what it is.

[PAUL K]

What is the difference between a $500 roller lifter and a $1500 roller lifter other than a grand?

[Formulajones]

Failure rates?? Lol

Honestly I see the same thing here as well as other examples, people either complain about price or quality but what they can't seem to comprehend is cheap prices rarely if ever means quality. So you see this repetitive circle of never ending problems.

Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome?

I'm not trying to be mean to anyone I'm just one of the few that point out what I see I guess.

You guys are more than welcome to do what ever works for you.

[PAUL K]

Kinda hoping some would explain the difference..... Other than price

[tom s]

I have been told that companies that have diff level of bleed down rate charge more for the least bleed down and the least for the most bleed down.They all come off the same machines and are tested and grouped to bleed down.FWIW,Tom

[Formulajones]

Makes sense. I also don't see why anyone expects these companies to make the cheaper parts better. As long as people keep buying the stuff then why would they change anything. They keep selling the parts. :shrug:

[Jay S]

The more expensive HR lifters supposedly have more precise machining to control the bleed rates. Supposedly

Some throw an extra shim in them to limit the travel, over course they have to charge more for that.

More than likely most of North America made lifters have the same needle bearings, rollers and axles. I have taken some needle type solid roller lifters apart and couldn’t see any differences even between brands and even between .75” and .7” rollers. I was a bit surprised to find the .75” roller has the same needles and axle diameter as the .7”. That was jumping from a .904” Crane SR to a .872” Lunati SR. I rebuilt the Cranes with the parts from the axles parts in the Lunati’s. After doing that I don’t have much expectation that there is much difference in the HR lifters bearings.

I think by far the largest issue with HR stuff is poor bleed rates. When the bleed rate is poor on the lifter its check valve won’t lock the plunger in place until the lifter is up beyond the lash ramp and it creates lifter noise. Then it slowly hammer the needles out, or collapses the lifter because there is not a strong enough signal to trigger the check valve to lock the plunger. The cams like the Comp extreme energy cams with a 52* intensity the lash ramp ends by about .005” tappet lift. Howard’s 53* is closer to .006”. Most of the Ultradyne and Bullet grinds are .007” to .008”, the lifter has more time to recover, the bleed rates are less important. Comp has less aggressive profiles to, I was just using the XR series for an example.

[Formulajones]

Yeah that's one thing hylift is proud of and states it in all their literature, tight bleed down tolerances. I have to say they sure are quiet.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Jay S

The more expensive HR lifters supposedly have more precise machining to control the bleed rates. Supposedly

Some throw an extra shim in them to limit the travel, over course they have to charge more for that.

More than likely most of North America made lifters have the same needle bearings, rollers and axles. I have taken some needle type solid roller lifters apart and couldn’t see any differences even between brands and even between .75” and .7” rollers. I was a bit surprised to find the .75” roller has the same needles and axle diameter as the .7”. That was jumping from a .904” Crane SR to a .872” Lunati SR. I rebuilt the Cranes with the parts from the axles parts in the Lunati’s. After doing that I don’t have much expectation that there is much difference in the HR lifters bearings.

I think by far the largest issue with HR stuff is poor bleed rates. When the bleed rate is poor on the lifter its check valve won’t lock the plunger in place until the lifter is up beyond the lash ramp and it creates lifter noise. Then it slowly hammer the needles out, or collapses the lifter because there is not a strong enough signal to trigger the check valve to lock the plunger. The cams like the Comp extreme energy cams with a 52* intensity the lash ramp ends by about .005” tappet lift. Howard’s 53* is closer to .006”. Most of the Ultradyne and Bullet grinds are .007” to .008”, the lifter has more time to recover, the bleed rates are less important. Comp has less aggressive profiles to, I was just using the XR series for an example.

how about the comp magnum lobes, esp the high lift ones like OF 1.0?

[tom s]

AS far as I can tell Morel make 4 diff pontiac hyd roller lifters,figure that out.Tom

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by i82much

how about the comp magnum lobes, esp the high lift ones like OF 1.0?

They are more like the Bullet’s and Ultradyne’s I mentioned. The magnum HR cams normally can get by with less controlled lifter bleed rates as long as the lift is less than .6”. A lifter with a better controlled bleed rate are probably going to perform better working against a lot of lift with big rocker ratios when you get close to or above .6” though, the more expensive lifter with the better controlled bleed rate is not a corner I would want to cut at that point.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by tom s

AS far as I can tell Morel make 4 diff pontiac hyd roller lifters,figure that out.Tom

I know of the 2 styles that are the same but one has the oil band higher. Then there is one more that I recall are taller for aftermarket blocks. What is the fourth?

[PAUL K]

Okay maybe my question is too complicated or no one knows the answer.

How bout this:

When the $800 lifters were the most expensive they had to be the best. What changed with the $800 lifters when the $1200 lifters came to market?


When the $1200 lifters became $1500 lifters in what way did they get $300 better than the $1200 lifters? Also would the $1200 lifters become obsolete (and not as good) with the $1500 lifters on the market?


Also if you had a set of $450 lifters functioning perfectly would those lifters be good or bad?

[67Lemons]

I guess the question is whether they took those same $800 lifters & moved them up to the $1200 price then the $1500 price. In the parts business we typically see an increase every year do the tune of 3-5% but not always on every part, typically the way the price file goes the mfr raises some prices & then when you look at the whole line we can say they took about a 3-5% increase based on the way the numbers flow. The other question that may have already been answered is are they picking the top percentage of every lifter for better or controlled bleed down rated then packaging those up as the $1500 lifter vs the standard $800 lifter? You will pay a premium for that service for sure.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Jay S

The more expensive HR lifters supposedly have more precise machining to control the bleed rates. Supposedly

Some throw an extra shim in them to limit the travel, over course they have to charge more for that.

More than likely most of North America made lifters have the same needle bearings, rollers and axles. I have taken some needle type solid roller lifters apart and couldn’t see any differences even between brands and even between .75” and .7” rollers. I was a bit surprised to find the .75” roller has the same needles and axle diameter as the .7”. That was jumping from a .904” Crane SR to a .872” Lunati SR. I rebuilt the Cranes with the parts from the axles parts in the Lunati’s. After doing that I don’t have much expectation that there is much difference in the HR lifters bearings.

Using round numbers, the Hy-lift S lifter is their closest tolerance hydraulic lifter and sells for $300. You can buy a set of quality BAM lifters with an excellent bearing and wheel package for $600. Now if one casts a lifter body, that should be able to be done for less than $200. One uses the machining and parts from from the S lifter (less than $300) and installs the BAM wheel and bearing package for $400 ($600 BAM cost minus the $200 for the HR body) how are we coming up with a $1500 set of lifters?.... That still have issues.

Also why is 20w50 oil doable with the tight tolerance S lifters but when you stick a wheel on the bottom of lifter all of the sudden the metering goes haywire with the thicker oil. Unless your having an issue with the thinner oil, then the thicker oil is acceptable.


And to go one step further a set of $179 HR Melling replacement lifters function perfectly ...... And folks are bent out of shapes because our aluminum heads cost more than other brands.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by 67Lemons

I guess the question is whether they took those same $800 lifters & moved them up to the $1200 price then the $1500 price. In the parts business we typically see an increase every year do the tune of 3-5% but not always on every part, typically the way the price file goes the mfr raises some prices & then when you look at the whole line we can say they took about a 3-5% increase based on the way the numbers flow. The other question that may have already been answered is are they picking the top percentage of every lifter for better or controlled bleed down rated then packaging those up as the $1500 lifter vs the standard $800 lifter? You will pay a premium for that service for sure.

The $800 lifters were manufactured by a different company before the $1200 lifters came out that were later raised in price to $1500 in one jump.

We would be blessed if the performance auto parts prices only increased by 3-5% annually.

[67Lemons]

Also on a similar note I was at the Federal Mogul factory this year & I watched someone at one of the stations boxing up lifters. Absolutely no specific sorting or special procedures, every single tray of lifters went into a box & then they were paired together in sets without any rhyme or reason. When I commented to my contact they told me that all of their lifters had to meet certain quality control specs to be boxed for sale indicating that they were all the same which is very typical of most factories that I’ve visited in my career.