[Bill S]

In another thread early this summer I posted about discovering two worn lifters, but in frustration just put the car in my back garage bay and covered it until I had time over the holiday to pull the engine and tear it down.

Engine is 1970 455 four bolt main, stock crank 0.010" under, ICON forged pistons 0.040" over, Maxx lite connecting rods, Mellings 041 cam, Rhoads VMax lifters with vertical oil groove, Harland Sharpe 1.65 roller rockers, headers, Cliff Ruggles 800 cfm Qjet, ported '67 stock intake, 6X-8 heads ported per Jim Hands book, SI SS valve with 1.77 exhaust, and 995-16 valve springs at 1.700" height. Compression is 9.4. Did this engine in 2011 for my '67 Firebird, driving it only in the summer not many miles. Over the years I thought it was not as powerful, but this summer it developed a severe miss, so I pulled the valve covers and found two loose rockers. Pulled the intake and yup two worn lifters.

So that I had time over the holiday, I pulled the engine and did a full tear down. The two lifters are worn about 0.170" and the cam lobes about 0.100". The only good thing is I used two Filter Mags on a Baldwin B39 filter and a magnetic drain plug. Cut open the filter and yup metal in there. Upon complete teardown I don't see more metal and the bearing don't look bad, minor scratches but the crank journals look good. I plan to send the block out for cleaning and will install new bearings and a oil pump.

So, why this wear ?
I did everything per sage advice. Correct lube on the cam, break in with no inner springs, oil with zinc, lifters with the Superlube groove. I believed I would never have to open up this engine again, and enjoy this car for the next 30 some odd years, as a cruiser. (Owned the 'bird since 1980)

Any root cause suggestions ?

All lifters rotate, valves move freely, had a reputable shop do the heads and verified the spring pressure / height. I adjusted the preload correctly, triple checked it.

I see in other threads there seems to be two camps; nothing wrong with HFT cams, or go roller. I am willing to spend the money for reliability.
What the latest story with retrofit roller lifters reliability ?

[steve25]

I do not know if you did this or not, but It's very important to NOT prime the lifters with oil before you load them in the Bores.
If you did so then you can never get the .030" to .050" preload right before you fire the motor over, and a good sign of this condition is that the motor does not light off right away!

It does not take much cranking time before and having the motor not fire for damage to be be done even with breakin lube.

[TedRamAirII]

Originally Posted by steve25

I do not know if you did this or not, but It's very important to NOT prime the lifters with oil before you load them in the Bores.
If you did so then you can never get the .030" to .050" preload right before you fire the motor over, and a good sign of this condition is that the motor does not light off right away!

It does not take much cranking time before and having the motor not fire for damage to be be done even with breakin lube.

Why not prime the lifters? with pressure on them they will bleed down anyhow, right? I just tighten them down, let them bleed down, then loosen the rocker nut till I see .030-.040 gap under the snap ring. Or am I way off doing that?

[Bill S]

Effected lifters were at cylinder 3 ad 4, both intake. All other lifers / cam lobe perfect.
I don't remember if I prime the lifters, but I did follow Rocky's "How to Rebuild a Pontiac V8" step by step.

Still, why wouldn't more lifters / cam locations be wiped out ?

Anyway, strongly thinking about going hydraulic roller cam. Only issue is I have Harland Sharp 1.65 (1.7" ?) roller rockers, and valve spring height is 1.70". Not sure if there an off the shelf cam, or would a custom grind to limit lift.

[grivera]

Originally Posted by Bill S

Still, why wouldn't more lifters / cam locations be wiped out ?

When you originally installed did you confirm all lifters rotated easily in the bores? I don't mean with engine running but when lifters are first inserted in bore. If they get stuck or barely rotate they can get scuffed and downhill from there. It's a good practice to verify they are spinning once engine is running too. This is done by marking the pushrods and watching for rotation of all 16 at similar speeds.

[FrankieT/A]

I rebuilt two of my engines side by side simultaneously 40 years ago.

70 RA III "12" heads
72 455 HO "7F6" heads

Both use identical parts as follows.

Melling SPC 8 or 3 (I can't remember the part number off the top of my head)
Ram Air 4 cam
Factory Ram Air 4 lifters (Try and find those today)
HO Specialties springs

I always used Pennzoil 10w30 oil until the Zinc was reduced or eliminated then always used Zinc additive with oil changes. Never any problems in 40 years.

NOW all the oil I see is 100% synthetic and made from natural gas. WTF?

I always used Pennzoil because it was always made from Pennsylvania grade crude oil. Not anymore-Not sure what I will do from here...Both cars still run fine though.

[Formulajones]

There are quite a few good oils on the market that are marketed specifically towards classic cars and flat tappet camshafts.

The issue I hear all the time is people not wanting to spend a little extra. I look at it this way..... For what it costs to build an engine these days, it's cheap insurance. I'll gladly pay a little more for a good oil. And if you shop around and buy in bulk it's really not that bad.

For as little as everyone drives their classics anyway it's not like they need to change the oil super frequently. They even make oil specifically made for cars that sit a lot. For people only driving 2 or 3,000 miles a year I don't see a need for them to change it but once a year So spend what.....$50-$60 bucks every spring and don't worry about it.

Honestly the best way to approach it if anyone cares about their engine is send a small sample off to blackstone for analysis. They tell you exactly when an oil change should be done, how well the oil and filter choice is working for you, and if there are any potential issues. You can then make a better decision on what you want to use and when to change it.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by FrankieT/A

Ram Air 4 cam Factory Ram Air 4 lifters (Try and find those today)

If you have never taken the RA-IV Lifters apart, if you do, you will notice that the pushrod cup that is
retained inside the lifter is actually different from a normal lifter in height (if you sit them side by side on the bench).
(the bottom of the RA-IV lifter Pushrod Cup is thicker vs a normal lifter). The part is taller.

This makes them a "Limited Travel" lifter which helps with them not "pumping up" at high rpm and hanging a valve open.

Many times the special Pushrod cups can be swapped to several lifters sets over time if you were trying different
camshafts at the race track.

RA-IV grinds but with different advance/retard profiles.

I wish Johnson or someone would build some of those pushrod cups again.
Then you could use the cups in other lifter sets from Johnson.

Tom V.

[BILL BOWMAN1]

Over 2 years and you still gotta stir sh!t.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by BILL BOWMAN1

Over 2 years and you still gotta stir sh!t.

This thread makes me wanna call my third grade teacher and give her a piece of my mind!!

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by BILL BOWMAN1

Over 2 years and you still gotta stir sh!t.

LMAO.............

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by FrankieT/A

I rebuilt two of my engines side by side simultaneously 40 years ago.

70 RA III "12" heads
72 455 HO "7F6" heads

Both use identical parts as follows.

Melling SPC 8 or 3 (I can't remember the part number off the top of my head)
Ram Air 4 cam
Factory Ram Air 4 lifters (Try and find those today)
HO Specialties springs

I always used Pennzoil 10w30 oil until the Zinc was reduced or eliminated then always used Zinc additive with oil changes. Never any problems in 40 years.

NOW all the oil I see is 100% synthetic and made from natural gas. WTF?

I always used Pennzoil because it was always made from Pennsylvania grade crude oil. Not anymore-Not sure what I will do from here...Both cars still run fine though.

FWIW, Pennzoil is still excellent quality oil, the reason they make it from NG now is because crude oil is always contaminated by dirt, because it comes from the ground. If they use the natural gas it comes out much cleaner than oil made from crude.

From Pennzoil's website:

Pennzoil Platinum Full Synthetic motor oils are made from natural gas, not crude so its base oil is 99.5% free of engine clogging impurities.

Pennzoil took the 100% Pennsylvania crude off of the cans back in the 70s, so you haven't been receiving 100% PA crude oil for decades in Pennzoil products.

Hot Shots Secret/LSI (Lubrications Specialties Inc.) tested new Rotella as it come from the bottle, and it has quite a bit of solids still floating in it. Here's the particle count of new oil chart. The third one is Shell Rotella brand new:



One of the reasons I use a by pass oil filter on my own vehicles, new oil just isn't as pure as you think it would be. And after you start the car it degrades from that point.

Also note that Pennzoil, and Quaker State are both now owned by SOPUS, or Shell Oil Products U.S.

Shell, Pennzoil and Quaker State, are all very similar. There are some differences and areas where the products don't overlap, such as specialty oils that one brand may cater to that not all are available under the other two labels.

In the past I was a Pennzoil dealer, that was in 1977. I have all the faith in their products as I did back then when they were headquartered in Rouseville PA. I believe that Quaker State has actually improved under the Shell umbrella.

Back in the late 70s the Pennzoil refinery workers were on strike each rail car was tested as it arrived at the refinery, before they refused, or received it. One of the salesmen that had my account was working during the strike. He told me that the railcars that were refused by Pennzoil, were then sent to Quaker State, because their requirements were no where as tight as Pennzoil's were.

One other thing I also heard, was that in the 70s Quaker State decided they knew more about additive packages than the companies that supplied most oil companies. They made their own additive package, and it ended up with a gray deposit in the engines, even if the oil as changed as per manufacturers schedule.

When I started wrenching upon graduation in 1970, I saw countless cars that had this gray deposit under the valve covers. Invariably I'd ask the owners if they were using Quaker State, and the answer was always, yes. Latter years they did go back to industry suppliers of the additive package, abandoning their home brew additives.

Living in Erie PA (only about 40 miles from Oil City PA) for 47 years, you find out some things most people never have access to.

[PunchT37]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

FWIW, Pennzoil is still excellent quality oil, the reason they make it from NG now is because crude oil is always contaminated by dirt, because it comes from the ground. If they use the natural gas it comes out much cleaner than oil made from crude.

From Pennzoil's website:



Pennzoil took the 100% Pennsylvania crude off of the cans back in the 70s, so you haven't been receiving 100% PA crude oil for decades in Pennzoil products.

Hot Shots Secret/LSI (Lubrications Specialties Inc.) tested new Rotella as it come from the bottle, and it has quite a bit of solids still floating in it. Here's the particle count of new oil chart. The third one is Shell Rotella brand new:



One of the reasons I use a by pass oil filter on my own vehicles, new oil just isn't as pure as you think it would be. And after you start the car it degrades from that point.

Also note that Pennzoil, and Quaker State are both now owned by SOPUS, or Shell Oil Products U.S.

Shell, Pennzoil and Quaker State, are all very similar. There are some differences and areas where the products don't overlap, such as specialty oils that one brand may cater to that not all are available under the other two labels.

In the past I was a Pennzoil dealer, that was in 1977. I have all the faith in their products as I did back then when they were headquartered in Rouseville PA. I believe that Quaker State has actually improved under the Shell umbrella.

Back in the late 70s the Pennzoil refinery workers were on strike each rail car was tested as it arrived at the refinery, before they refused, or received it. One of the salesmen that had my account was working during the strike. He told me that the railcars that were refused by Pennzoil, were then sent to Quaker State, because their requirements were no where as tight as Pennzoil's were.

One other thing I also heard, was that in the 70s Quaker State decided they knew more about additive packages than the companies that supplied most oil companies. They made their own additive package, and it ended up with a gray deposit in the engines, even if the oil as changed as per manufacturers schedule.

When I started wrenching upon graduation in 1970, I saw countless cars that had this gray deposit under the valve covers. Invariably I'd ask the owners if they were using Quaker State, and the answer was always, yes. Latter years they did go back to industry suppliers of the additive package, abandoning their home brew additives.

Living in Erie PA (only about 40 miles from Oil City PA) for 47 years, you find out some things most people never have access to.

Quaker Cake, as we called it.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by PunchT37

Quaker Cake, as we called it.

I never heard that one before, but it is very true of what you'd find in the valve covers, and pan

[JLBIII]

Originally Posted by PunchT37

Quaker Cake, as we called it.

That's a new one here too. Working in the garages back in the 70's the older mechanics told me that the crud formed inside the engine was because of the high Sulphur content in QS oil. None of them ever ran it in their cars.

[74Grandville]

"Rhoads VMax lifters" - These lifters should be installed similar to solid lifters and don't follow the normal preload procedure.

https://www.rhoadslifters.com/Pages/Installation.html

[lust4speed]

Originally Posted by 74Grandville

"Rhoads VMax lifters" - These lifters should be installed similar to solid lifters and don't follow the normal preload procedure.

https://www.rhoadslifters.com/Pages/Installation.html

Agree. Rhoads knows the best way to set lash on their product, and that will have the best chance of the valve train surviving.

The fit and finish of the Rhoads lifters are way above what I have seen from other companies, and I believe they have the best chance of living. A lobe will take out a lifter and vice versa, and when both are ground down it can only be speculation of whether the lobe or lifter failed first.

While you have identified two that failed, I would be willing to bet that additional lobe/lifter combinations are in various degrees of failure -- and it could be these that might tell you where the failure points are. If some of the lifters look like new but you are seeing slight flattening of the lobe crown, I'd say that the cam is taking out the lifters.

We have Rhoads V-Max lifters along with the Crower RAIV reproduction in the 2+2 and it has lasted thousands of miles. Before that combination we had two cam/lifter failures in that engine and mostly out of desperation we went with the two products that seemed to have the least reported problems.

Just for the record, I haven't pulled out a HFT cam on an engine rebuild that I would be comfortable putting back in the engine. That's 100% of the HFT cams in a row that had either gone flat or showed initial signs of failure.

I just had the first HR cam failure come in and it was due to a rivet coming out of a link bar. Haven't heard of any other link bars failing so mostly just bad luck, but flat tappet cams going flat happens all the time.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

Agree. Rhoads knows the best way to set lash on their product, and that will have the best chance of the valve train surviving.

The fit and finish of the Rhoads lifters are way above what I have seen from other companies, and I believe they have the best chance of living. A lobe will take out a lifter and vice versa, and when both are ground down it can only be speculation of whether the lobe or lifter failed first.

First Question I would ask Bill S is: What oil were you using with these lifters in the engine you have had for 10 years?

Second Question is Did you use GM EOS on the initial break-in?
I assume you did.

Third Questionis What oil did you have in the original engine 10 years ago and what was the PPM of that oil. Parts per Million of Zinc in oil.


% of Zinc in oil vs PPM | Bob Is The Oil Guy
https://bobistheoilguy.com › forums › threads › of-zinc...

From your posts it appears that you had the failure of the camshaft and lifters over a period of time. A flip of the coin which lifters on what cylinder failed first. Post up that info.

Adding better oil after the failure is on the way will do nothing.

Tom V.

[tom s]

You can get low lobe lift hyd roller cams.Butler could order one for you.Tom

[Douglas Willinger]

When did you obtain the lifters? Were they manufactured recently or a few years ago? I ask because I have heard of similar failures with recently produced lifters in Chevrolet engines, and am wondering if these - lifter and camshaft lobe failures - are a more recent phenononom?

Originally Posted by Bill S

In another thread early this summer I posted about discovering two worn lifters, but in frustration just put the car in my back garage bay and covered it until I had time over the holiday to pull the engine and tear it down.

Engine is 1970 455 four bolt main, stock crank 0.010" under, ICON forged pistons 0.040" over, Maxx lite connecting rods, Mellings 041 cam, Rhoads VMax lifters with vertical oil groove, Harland Sharpe 1.65 roller rockers, headers, Cliff Ruggles 800 cfm Qjet, ported '67 stock intake, 6X-8 heads ported per Jim Hands book, SI SS valve with 1.77 exhaust, and 995-16 valve springs at 1.700" height. Compression is 9.4. Did this engine in 2011 for my '67 Firebird, driving it only in the summer not many miles. Over the years I thought it was not as powerful, but this summer it developed a severe miss, so I pulled the valve covers and found two loose rockers. Pulled the intake and yup two worn lifters.

So that I had time over the holiday, I pulled the engine and did a full tear down. The two lifters are worn about 0.170" and the cam lobes about 0.100". The only good thing is I used two Filter Mags on a Baldwin B39 filter and a magnetic drain plug. Cut open the filter and yup metal in there. Upon complete teardown I don't see more metal and the bearing don't look bad, minor scratches but the crank journals look good. I plan to send the block out for cleaning and will install new bearings and a oil pump.

So, why this wear ?
I did everything per sage advice. Correct lube on the cam, break in with no inner springs, oil with zinc, lifters with the Superlube groove. I believed I would never have to open up this engine again, and enjoy this car for the next 30 some odd years, as a cruiser. (Owned the 'bird since 1980)

Any root cause suggestions ?

All lifters rotate, valves move freely, had a reputable shop do the heads and verified the spring pressure / height. I adjusted the preload correctly, triple checked it.

I see in other threads there seems to be two camps; nothing wrong with HFT cams, or go roller. I am willing to spend the money for reliability.
What the latest story with retrofit roller lifters reliability ?