[phil400]

I've been reading on this forum for years..... 400 with 4 speed, 3.73 gears, and the kind of money you've got to throw at it with strokers etc.., I'd keep it a 400 with #12 heads, good rods and pistons, crower 60916, good luck getting it to hook with street tires, I mean just saying..


Crappy pistons, and a cam designed for 8-1 compression in it, no wonder it pings.

[Jay S]

Nothing wrong with the 3.75” combo with forged rods and pistons in that. With the 3.73 gears and the 4 speed I think you’d like the 4” stroke combo the best. You’d notice the extra tq and it would still run really hard on the top end. You could put some more cam in it also with the bigger cid against the 400, not really much for a downside to me other than cost. I’d only do a forged crank (not a Chinese nodular) in that since it is numbers matching, it is going to be quite a more money over the 3.75” stock crank, but the forged 4” crank and rotating assembly would be a nice upgrade over stock. Rebalancing the stock crank again narrows the cost difference up some too. Easy to spend someone else’s money lol.

6000 miles it shouldn’t need bored, just honed.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by phil400

I've been reading on this forum for years..... 400 with 4 speed, 3.73 gears, and the kind of money you've got to throw at it with strokers etc.., I'd keep it a 400 with #12 heads, good rods and pistons, crower 60916, good luck getting it to hook with street tires, I mean just saying..


Crappy pistons, and a cam designed for 8-1 compression in it, no wonder it pings.

Best advice in this thread right here.

These 400 engines were no slouch as delivered from the factory.

With a cam upgrade they really wake up, porting the heads really isn’t necessary. Just get the correct custom pistons (wrist pin location) that will set the deck to zero and you’re good.

Good luck.

[racerboy]

Originally Posted by phil400

I've been reading on this forum for years..... 400 with 4 speed, 3.73 gears, and the kind of money you've got to throw at it with strokers etc.., I'd keep it a 400 with #12 heads, good rods and pistons, crower 60916, good luck getting it to hook with street tires, I mean just saying..


Crappy pistons, and a cam designed for 8-1 compression in it, no wonder it pings.

Interestingly enough, I believe I have a new Crower 60916 cam/spring/lifter package that I bought to try in my 1970 Judge back in 2018, but never got around to installing it. Exact same engine (even same head build date of D 22 0) as I have in my TA. That engine had good pistons and aftermarket rods but ‘only’ an 068 cam, which is why I wanted to try the 60916.

I was playing around with the Butler website trying to determine some basic costs. What CR do I want to aim for if I run the #12 heads? 9:1?

Also, what kind of rings? Their drop down menus has Classic Race (STD or file-fit), Stainless top, or Gapless. The price increases in the same order.


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[Jay S]

Classic std rings would work fine.

Set up well, with quench, and a good cam, most generally consider 9.5 compression middle ground on pump gas with a decent flat tappet street cam for most stock port iron headed Pontiacs. For me that includes stock d ports, stock intake, and RA manifolds. I have been as high as 10.3 SCR on 91 octane with the RA manifold and stock intake with no issues, pretty big SFT cam though. If set up poorly, like how this RA 3 is right now, with the really poor quench, and that 204, 214 cam, 9:0 can even have some issues on pump gas.

When the compression gets down toward 9:0 I like roller cams a lot better than hyd flat tappets. Quite a bit more average power than most flat tappets, and still make decent max power numbers. With stock iron heads, intake and RA manifolds, and a roller cam: the 9.0 SCR seems to be more middle ground on pump gas.

[Stan Weiss]

I would be interested to know what the cranking compression was that cause a 204 @ 0.050" intake lobe to have pinking.

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by racerboy

I found the paperwork from the fella I bought the car from. It appears the engine was rebuilt in 2008 by the previous-previous owner. We’ll call him DG. The rebuilt was done by CarQuest (according to receipts) and it looks like a pretty standard stock rebuild. There is a line item for boring the block ($40) and for new pistons. The part no. on those pistons was XPC 139625030. Between 2008-2010 is when the car itself was restored, so this engine probably sat on a stand. Following the receipt trail, looks like the restoration was finished some time in late 2010 and then DG sold the car to previous owner (GF) in Dec. 2010. Car had 84219 miles on it. GF took car into shop almost immediately after purchase 84231 miles) complaining of a rod knock. This shop recommended pulling the motor and going through it again, saying it was not rebuilt properly. I don’t see any receipts for machine work related to another bore, and the pistons listed above were probably reused. The stock rods were reused.

There is a receipt for balancing the pistons/rods. It doesn’t give any prices or anything but it lists the weights of the pistons, rods, bearings, etc. in grams. Pistons w/ pins weighed 877.6 g.

They did replace the camshaft in the second rebuild with a Melling MTP-1. Looks like Summit still sells that cam. Duration is 204/214 @.050. Lift is 421/424. 112 LSA. They also replaced valve springs (part no. 988-16) and there is a line item for 8 valves (V1097). They also replaced the harmonic balancer. Looks like they also rebuilt the entire M21 transmission as well. Hmm. I have to assume that GF was pretty mad at DG after having to spend over $6000 on a restored car two months after building it.

I bought the car in 2020 from GF. Well, technically, I tried to buy the car from GF in 2018, but it we didn’t reach a deal and it got sold to a dealer here in NJ. The dealer flipped the car immediately, then took it in on consignment in 2020, that’s when I bought. Car has 90,500 miles on it now, hence my earlier statement about only 6000 miles on previous rebuild.

Sorry for long post. Just wanted to provide as much detail as I could.

My preference would be to keep the car 100% original if possible, but want it to have more grunt, and the pinging (on 93 octane) has to go. I have tried adjusting the timing/carb to manage this but it’s still there cal ways worse on a hot day.


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If this is who rebuilt the engine the first time http://carlquistengines.com/ I would have taken it back to them. They seem to have a very good record.

Stan

[racerboy]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

If this is who rebuilt the engine the first time http://carlquistengines.com/ I would have taken it back to them. They seem to have a very good record.

Stan

I’m not sure what happened there. DG lived in Michigan and it was a CarQuest there that did the engine before being sold to GF out in California. I’m sure there were plenty of CarQuests in CA as well, but it looks like GF took the car to a local mechanic who told him the rebuild was not done properly.

I got to know GF fairly well through multiple emails and phone calls back when I was originally trying to buy this car directly from him. Super nice guy, but not very hands-on when it came to doing anything on the car. I have a feeling that he was taken advantage of a little bit by his local mechanic (and maybe DG, who he bought the car from).


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[racerboy]

I’m going to call Butler tomorrow to see if there 4.00 stroker kit is really a 14-week wait.


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[tom s]

Custom pistons are 12 weeks or more at this time.Tom

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by 25stevem

The 96 heads on that 72 block sounds like the way I would start out!

Build that block nice and strong with most of the funds you have now and then down the road plop aftermarket heads on the motor.

In a buddy's car a bunch of years ago for two complete race seasons we ran a 72 455 two bolt main block in the high 10s in the 1/4 and when we pulled it down it was perfect and we would have had no issue with running it another two full race seasons!

For a street motor don't go nut's over running a 3" main Crank over the 3.250"!

X 2. Either a 3” main block or a 3.25” block is fine for street use. This difference in durability between the two blocks is during sustained high rpm use ( road racing and circle track racing) where the bearing speeds of the 3.25” main CAN be a problem. It’s the same with four bolt mains; a properly inspected and machined two bolt main 455 Pontiac with studded main caps is more than strong enough for street use unless you are planning to use a “power adder” like nitrous in the future.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Nothing wrong with the 3.75” combo with forged rods and pistons in that. With the 3.73 gears and the 4 speed I think you’d like the 4” stroke combo the best. You’d notice the extra tq and it would still run really hard on the top end. You could put some more cam in it also with the bigger cid against the 400, not really much for a downside to me other than cost. I’d only do a forged crank (not a Chinese nodular) in that since it is numbers matching, it is going to be quite a more money over the 3.75” stock crank, but the forged 4” crank and rotating assembly would be a nice upgrade over stock. Rebalancing the stock crank again narrows the cost difference up some too. Easy to spend someone else’s money lol.

6000 miles it shouldn’t need bored, just honed.

Assuming the block was bored and honed correctly the first time. You would be surprised at some of the idiocy I have seen. Competent engine machinists seem to be a somewhat rare commodity these days.

[racerboy]

I think I’ve decided on a build plan:

Build the original WS using a 4” stroker kit from Butler (unless there is a better vendor).

I would like to run the factory #12 heads. I would have these rebuilt. From the feedback I’ve received, it doesn’t seem like I need them ported but maybe they should be gasket-matched? If I run a roller cam it seems like I need new (longer) valves? I have no problem spending the money if that’s what I need. We are a long way off from a cam choice and you know I will be pinging this board with questions.

I would run the factory intake. I’m hoping to get it CNC machined by SD Performance. I know that Dave is way backed up, but maybe by the time the machine work is done and the pistons arrive, he can slide me in.

I would like to pull the motor ASAP to get this party started. In the interim, was thinking about dropping in the 428 I have because I have a feeling the 400 build is going to take a bit of time. I can’t even order pistons until I know if the block needs a re-bore or just a hone, and now that spring is starting to show its face, I’d like to still drive the car. That 428 is running 670 heads, but it never pinged when I had it in my ‘67 GTO. I have another thread about that engine and I think the big cam in it helps bleed off some of the compression. I have a couple of questions regarding using that engine (until the 400 is done):
1. I pulled the cam out of the 428 to get a part # and reinstalled it straight up. Is it worth the effort to have that cam degreed, even if I know that engine will come out in 3 months?

2. I know I need to buy some motor mount adapters to run a ‘69 428 in a ‘70 Trans Am. Does anyone know if the ones sold by our sponsor are good quality?

Thanks. I really appreciate all the feedback I’ve received on this thread.

Frank


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[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by racerboy

I think I’ve decided on a build plan:

Build the original WS using a 4” stroker kit from Butler (unless there is a better vendor).

I would like to run the factory #12 heads. I would have these rebuilt. From the feedback I’ve received, it doesn’t seem like I need them ported but maybe they should be gasket-matched? If I run a roller cam it seems like I need new (longer) valves? I have no problem spending the money if that’s what I need. We are a long way off from a cam choice and you know I will be pinging this board with questions.

I would run the factory intake. I’m hoping to get it CNC machined by SD Performance. I know that Dave is way backed up, but maybe by the time the machine work is done and the pistons arrive, he can slide me in.

I would like to pull the motor ASAP to get this party started. In the interim, was thinking about dropping in the 428 I have because I have a feeling the 400 build is going to take a bit of time. I can’t even order pistons until I know if the block needs a re-bore or just a hone, and now that spring is starting to show its face, I’d like to still drive the car. That 428 is running 670 heads, but it never pinged when I had it in my ‘67 GTO. I have another thread about that engine and I think the big cam in it helps bleed off some of the compression. I have a couple of questions regarding using that engine (until the 400 is done):
1. I pulled the cam out of the 428 to get a part # and reinstalled it straight up. Is it worth the effort to have that cam degreed, even if I know that engine will come out in 3 months?

2. I know I need to buy some motor mount adapters to run a ‘69 428 in a ‘70 Trans Am. Does anyone know if the ones sold by our sponsor are good quality?

Thanks. I really appreciate all the feedback I’ve received on this thread.

Frank


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Frank, several guys here in PY port Pontiac heads. The last time I talked to Dave he was at least 3-4 months behind in porting. I don’t think he is porting iron head at all currently. Steve25 is the screen name for one of the guys who ports heads.

[Jay S]

The longer valves would be a good idea with the hyd roller.

IMHO having the SD performance mods done to the intake as well as port matching are both kind of recreational activities with stock heads. Those mods would more show performance’s gains on ported heads than stock heads.

If the 428 was running well before with no issues I and you were happy how it ran I don’t see much benefit to degree the cam in again if you can still put it back how it was (with the same timing set).

You could always piece together the rotating assembly and have a local shop balance it.. Some members on the boards here are parts searching extrodinare’s . Someone probably already has all the stuff on the shelf.

Butler or Ames both should have the engine mount adapter plate.

[Jay S]

Of all the stroker we have built I can only think of one complete rotating assembly that we bought, for a ford 351W stroker. I have always pieced the kit together, and I generally have done it cheaper than offerings in a kit. But, the 4” stroker which will have BBC RJ’s is one of the more difficult Pontiac rotating assemblies to piece together, especially with all the shortages right now. Not many suppliers have a 4” crank in stock. That would be the first thing I would seek.

The second thing that will be a bit unusual on your build compared to most Pontiac builds is the pistons. This is just my opinion, but I would find a source for the forged 4” crank. Then buy 6.635” long big block Chevy h beam connecting (either Molnar 1st choice), Eagle makes them to if you can find them, they are backordered. Then after you find the bore diameter you need call DSS and order a set of 4032 alloy standard compression height (1.585”) 428 pistons to your bore size, and have them change the pin from the stock Pontiac . 98” to .99” big block Chevy pin size. Then have them do the optional 28cc dish. Compression with that combination of parts should end up in the lower 9s, and the pistons would be .015” to .020” below the deck with out decking. It would be a first class rotating assembly to build off of, it would just need balancing. Everything else in a rotating kit is easy to source. I am not sure what the lead time is at DSS, the longest I ever recall was 2 months wait. Been about 2 weeks for most of the DSS pistons I have ordered. Call and talk to DSS directly and see what they can do for you.

[Brentco]

All great advice from Jay S about sourcing a stroker build from scratch. I would add that just because you buy a stroker kit from Butler doesn’t mean you get locked into the exact parts listed in the kit. Butler will work with you and they’re happy to swap out different pistons, rods, whatever you want. One advantage of working through Butler is that they have the stock, buying power, and connections with suppliers, so they can often get you parts you’d have a hard time getting on your own. And if you coordinate through them they can do the balancing in house. Right now working through the supply and logistics issues to get the parts you need is just about as difficult as actually building the engine.

[racerboy]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Frank, several guys here in PY port Pontiac heads. The last time I talked to Dave he was at least 3-4 months behind in porting. I don’t think he is porting iron head at all currently. Steve25 is the screen name for one of the guys who ports heads.

Thanks hoosier
I was just looking to have Dave do the CNC machine work on the intake. I saw on his website that he is no longer doing iron heads.


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[racerboy]

Thanks jay and Brentco. I’ll start making some calls around just to see where I’m at. I never bought a forged crank before. Are some suppliers more reputable than others? I see the name Molnar, Ohio Cranks, eagle and SCAT mentioned on this board. I dont know if they all offer a 4” stroker, but figured I’d ask.

Also, when I took the cam out of the 428, I replaced the timing chain and just lined up the dots when I put it back together. Was that a mistake?


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[AG]

As a point of reference I just called Racetec yesterday and got prices for Autotec 4032 custom pistons: $850 with pins, Racetec 2018 are $1200 with pins.

These are prices for custom pistons. Custom Ross 2018 from Butler are about $950 with pins. Racetec has a 4 month lead time, they are busy as hell.