[NeighborsComplaint]

I have my '71 GTO in the shop rebuilding the TH400 and installing a new posi and 3.55 gearset. While looking under the car, I can see the front and rear control arm bushings are all shot and the shocks date from 1989. It was pretty much a reality check looking at the derelict underside compared to the shiney topside.

I am thinking about putting on new tubular upper and lower control arms which have poly bushings and new ball joints, rear tubular control and trailing arms w. poly bushings, KYB gas shocks and a rear sway bar. I am also going to do the Jeep steering gearbox swap. The car has a front disk brake conversion already and I may leave the rear drums alone for now. The labor to install the new suspension parts is no different than the cost to install all new bushings so I am thinking seriously about doing this.

Can I expect a huge handling improvement from the suspension parts? I am expecting the car will feel much more nimble, precise and well controlled. Right now it floats like a boat.

The remaining item is springs and this is the dilemma ... the springs are 44 years old but the stance of the car is perfect. I just know if I put it new springs, the car will stand taller.

Would I be giving up a lot of ride quality and control by reusing the old springs? My gut says the new springs will make a big of difference in the ride of the car also. Is there a way to check the old springs' spring rates to see how far off spec they atre compared to new replacements?

Could I buy 1" drop springs and expect the car to sit the same? The whole ride height thing is a crapshoot to me.

Any thoughts from someone who has gone through this?

[joshDub]

Why not just go with coilovers so you can set the ride hight just as you want it?

[NeighborsComplaint]

That was an option but the cost would be around a grand, I know they are engineered but it just seems wrong to support the entire weight of the vehicle on the shock absorber mounts.

[rexs73gto]

Coil over kits should run you about $ 350.00 for your car & the coil over is supported on the lower control arm not the shock mount. The coil over shocks mount on top of the control arm for better support & it give you a great ride plus you have a lot more control over the front end height of your car then to. We just put a set on my friends 69 camaro & the total for the springs coil over shocks & the Torrington bearings was $ 362.00 & some change. The kit for your car is the same price as it will use the same parts. Bought right through Summit.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by rexs73gto

Coil over kits should run you about $ 350.00 for your car & the coil over is supported on the lower control arm not the shock mount. The coil over shocks mount on top of the control arm for better support & it give you a great ride plus you have a lot more control over the front end height of your car then to. We just put a set on my friends 69 camaro & the total for the springs coil over shocks & the Torrington bearings was $ 362.00 & some change. The kit for your car is the same price as it will use the same parts. Bought right through Summit.

I don't know where you are looking, but the cheapest ride-height adjustable kit I see on Summit.com is $445.97 for the front axle and $569.95 for the rear axle, so basically a grand.

[rexs73gto]

I talked with my friend tonight & he said he paid 445.99 for the front set. I thought it was the 349.00 so my mistake but that is still a good price for them, & all I was talking about was the front ones not the rear. We didn't put rear on his so I never got any prices for the rear. Usually you don't need them on the rear as your mainly putting them on the front to get it lowered because the rear is usually low enough. Once we dropped the front on his Camaro the rear was plenty low .

[NeighborsComplaint]

Well, I took the leap and will let you know how it turns out. Here's what I bought:

Ebay tubular upper/lower control arms w. urethane bushings and ball joints
UMI tubular rear control and trailing arm kit
Moog 5400 Front and CC5501 Rear springs
Hellwig rear sway bar
KYB Gas shocks for all 4 corners
Energy Suspension end links with urethane bushings
Energy Suspensions urethane sway bar bushings
Rear disc brake conversion kit with Caddy Eldorado calipers/ebrake
Moog rear spring isolators
GM proportioning valve kit w. lines
New brake hose lines
New rear brake hardlines
Carter M6907 mechanical fuel pump (taking out the whiney Holley red pump)
Cardone 1997 Jeep steering box
Lares 200 rag joint
Repro RAV Holley dual feed fuel hardline

I went with the Carter M6907 pump since the previous owner had pulled the return and vapor lines off the car and the carter pump did not require either. Supposed to flow 120 GPH at 5.5 - 6 psi.

I'll let you know how this turns out w. pics when done. Car had a front disc conversion done by the prior owner and no proportioning valve installed so the car really has always had poor braking. Should be interesting to see how it drives when done. With the suspension in place and the TH400 perf rebuild/3.55 posi in place, it should be much more enjoyable to drive.

Now I have to work on how I can make my "springy" stock seats (I put in new foam buns before reicovering them) feel like the new cars!

[joshDub]

Keep us posted.

I am planning on purchasing UMIs full setup plus QA1 double adjustable coilovers front and rear. I still need to figure out which front setup would work best for my goals with the ATS AFX spindles.

[Chris65LeMans]

Just some feedback on the Eldos - their e brakes weren't known for working well. I had that kit on my car, and ended up throwing it away in favor of a disk rotor with an internal drum for the parking brake. Had I known before, it would have saved me a few bucks.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by Chris65LeMans

Just some feedback on the Eldos - their e brakes weren't known for working well. I had that kit on my car, and ended up throwing it away in favor of a disk rotor with an internal drum for the parking brake. Had I known before, it would have saved me a few bucks.

I think I read that here on the board too. I haven't used my eBrake in the 36 years I've owned the car. It's an automatic, I put it I park. I saw where yours (4 speed) rolled down the driveway and into the street. Why don't you park the car in gear? I never rely on a parking brake (which is always out of adjustment anyway) when parking on a hill.

I paid $355 for the complete kit. The kits without eBrake weren't any cheaper because they put larger, drilled rotors and different calipers in those kits. Seems pointless to have bigger brakes on the back compared to the fronts that are on the car anyway. Honestly, I could have left the drum brakes alone and it probably would have been fine except the drums look dumb behind the 17" wheels.

[joshDub]

Relying on a manual to stay in gear as an ebrake is a risky game. You need to use both, not one or the other. It is too easy to bump it out of gear, or for you to have not engaged it all of the way without knowing. Also depending on how steep your hills are, engine compression might not even be enough.

[Classic442]

The front geometry is the issue here. In order for the parts to improve handling they have to address the front end specs. I fixed that with control arms that fix GM mistakes, matched springs/sway bars, and the Jeep steering box, mine handles as good as my Volvo R does around town and when pushed hard just above the speed limits. I used SC&C control arms and springs with Bilstein shocks.

[NeighborsComplaint]

The control arm set I ordered advertise their design offers improvements by increasing camber gain and improving roll camber. I didn't spend a bundle on the assemblage of parts so it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by joshDub

Relying on a manual to stay in gear as an ebrake is a risky game. You need to use both, not one or the other. It is too easy to bump it out of gear, or for you to have not engaged it all of the way without knowing. Also depending on how steep your hills are, engine compression might not even be enough.

Leaving a car in ist gear (manual) or Park (auto) is 100x more effective than a parking brake which relies on the tension of a cable to maintain braking force. How exactly does a transmission jump out if gear in a parked gar? It doesn't. The resistance of the engine's compression and the clamping force/friction material of the pressure plate/clutch disc far exceeds the clamping force of an emergency brake and cable. Come on, have you driven off with your emergency brake on? In most cases, you hardly notice it is on. Have you ever tried to push a car while it is 1st gear? The tires slide on the pavement before the engine will turn over.

[joshDub]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

Leaving a car in ist gear (manual) or Park (auto) is 100x more effective than a parking brake which relies on the tension of a cable to maintain braking force. How exactly does a transmission jump out if gear in a parked gar? It doesn't. The resistance of the engine's compression and the clamping force/friction material of the pressure plate/clutch disc far exceeds the clamping force of an emergency brake and cable. Come on, have you driven off with your emergency brake on? In most cases, you hardly notice it is on. Have you ever tried to push a car while it is 1st gear? The tires slide on the pavement before the engine will turn over.

That's a lot of nonsense coming from a guy who drives an auto.

A properly setup cable ebrake will not lose tension. A hydraulic one has an higher chance of losing pressure. A manual transmission car can be bumped out of gear by someone hitting it while parking, or by someone inside the car (say a passenger waiting, exiting, or entering the vehicle). Not to mention you can easily think you engaged the gear bit it just isn't quiet there yet.

No one is disputing the clamping force of a pressure plate.

Depending on weight and the friction coheficient of your tires, you could over come engine compression. While this situation isn't as common, it is possible. You must not be familiar with bump starting a manual.

Putting a manual in first gear and putting an auto into park at two very separate things.

As far as driving with an Ebrake on, yeah you can tell. You will have a difficult time taking off from a start and then rear will noticeably drag with a properly adjusted parking brake. It will be harder to tell if your driving an automatic, which simply has a go button and requires zero attention from the driver to operate.

Long story short, fix your ****ing ebrake. It'll hold your car in place provided you did it correctly. Don't rely on either a parking prawl or first gear to hold it in place. If you trust your brakes to stop your car you should trust them to hold it in place (along with an engaged gear or parking prawl). You just need to keep your equipment maintained, it could kill someone.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by joshDub

Long story short, fix your ****ing ebrake. It'll hold your car in place provided you did it correctly. Don't rely on either a parking prawl or first gear to hold it in place. If you trust your brakes to stop your car you should trust them to hold it in place (along with an engaged gear or parking prawl). You just need to keep your equipment maintained, it could kill someone.

I trust a master cylinder and 4 wheel brakes to stop my car. I do not trust an emergency brake to keep my car from rolling downhill if left in neutral. A parking brake is intended to be used in junction with putting a car in park or in gear with a manual trans. It is not intended as a substitute. In the rare instance the parking pawl in the automatic transmission might fail (the only failures I have ever seen resulted from putting a car in park while moving), yes a parking brake serves as a backup. Additionally, the parking brake (or emergency brake if you prefer) provides mechanical braking in the event of a hydraulic loss.

This is straight out of a current Chevy Owner's manual:

"Parking
If the vehicle has a manual transmission, before getting out of the vehicle, move the shift lever into R (Reverse) if parking on a downhill
slope. On a level surface or an uphill slope, use 1 (First) gear. Firmly apply the parking brake. Turn the wheels toward the curb for a
downhill slope, or away from the curb for an uphill slope. Once the shift lever has been placed into gear with the clutch pedal pressed in,
turn the ignition key to LOCK/OFF, remove the key, and release the clutch."

So go ahead and worry about the 1 in 10,000,000 chance my car will get hit from behind and shear off the parking pawl but be unconcerned that your car is parked in neutral on the hill and you are relying solely on your parking brake's cable adjustment to keep your car from rolling away because you left it in neutral.

Here's a pic of Turbo 400 Parking Pawl that would have to be sheared off to fail:

[joshDub]

Your reading comprehension is dismal. I have stated multiple times that you are to use to two together, not one or the other. Either option ~should~ keep the car in place but **** happens, so you need to use both options to make sure your car doesn't go anywhere. You claim you have never used an Ebrake in the past 36 ears, good for you. Fix your **** and use it.

That picture of the pin is useless for proving your point. I know what one looks like, and has neither a scale, nor 36 years of parking abuse.

Also, that Chevy example is exactly what I have been saying. Did you also happen to notice that in their instruction, at no point is the weight of the car resting on the drivetrain? It's all resting on the emergency brake and hoping that in the event of a failure, the drivetrain will catch and stop the car.

[NeighborsComplaint]

No problem. I am just saying that with these older cars, the contribution of the parking brake IMO is less than the putting the car in gear.

[Classic442]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

The control arm set I ordered advertise their design offers improvements by increasing camber gain and improving roll camber. I didn't spend a bundle on the assemblage of parts so it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

Sounds good. I have only driven my cars aggressively on a few courses, more so on the street by challenging newer cars here in Colorado who do not expect the 442, the Buick, or my Volvo wagon to enter a corner at speed. A few things I found to be at issue after the updated parts were installed was a shop or friend to align to updated specifications and spring rates that create pitch when pushed hard over uneven pavement. I noticed this issue on my 87 Buick T when I used Moog springs. It would pitch rear to front when turning and accelerating through an intersection and exiting the turn. The first time this happened it unloaded the rear tires while the turbo was spooling. Needless to say the Buick earned a story that day as a few fellow car guys and I were headed to a local get together. It felt more like my 74 Dodge 100 then a well balanced car.

I just want to share why it is important that all parts work together. At times when issues arise we need to troubleshoot the "why" did it do that. Even stock parts give us fits.

The other discussion on the parking brake is we all have to decide when any issue should be corrected. Whether we used a vise grip to seal a ruptured front brake line in 1982, ignored a trashed/faulty wiring harness, or had a 72 GTO with no rear brakes at all with a good pedal because the rear line was pinched off; just for a test drive. I am not admitting to these infractions but they do arise hopefully we have all learned a few things from owning these fabulous cars over the years.

I would recommend fixing it sooner than later to protect your GTO and the other guys rides that you call friends. Especially after you get the new susp parts installed.

I wish you the best when the parts arrive.

Maybe you have but, if not take a look at a few books or articles on making our cars handle. Pro-Touring dot com or Lateral G has some good info.

Lance

[Will]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

Have you ever tried to push a car while it is 1st gear? The tires slide on the pavement before the engine will turn over.

Ever push-started a car with a dead battery?