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Old 04-26-2023, 03:48 PM
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Default Home Porting Unexpected Feature

So, no guts no glory, right?

1971 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am. Original 455HO block. Edelbrock round port CNC chamber 87cc heads.

I made my winter project doing some porting. Did as much homework as I could.

First oopsie was draining the coolant from the radiator but not pulling the block plug. But I run coolant and I cleaned up fairly well and WD-40ed the heck out of stuff. Didn't see any signs of corrosion in the bores apart from some very light colouring and kept stuff fairly doused with WD-40 whilst apart.

Made my goal to be fairly conservative. I basically gasket matched the runners on the intake and almost nothing else there (HO intake). The Edelbrock heads have gasket matched openings but it necks down pretty fast and the finish is rough. I basically smoothed and opened the opening on into the port. I knocked back the pushrod and head bolt bulges. The only real shaping I did was to attempt to "waterfall" the short turn.

As far as the two bulges I saw that the pushrod bulge actually has plenty of meat. You can almost eliminate it and still have quite a bit of thickness. Anyway, it didn't seem so critical in airflow terms as the pushrod bulge. Now the pushrod bulge clearly doesn't have much margin to play with if you're going to really try to knock it back to make that cylinder wall side port wall a continuous curve. So I thought about it, tried to search on it. eventually reasoned that even if I had a breakthrough the hole is blind in the block and the headbolt (ARP mine) have a machined washer with ARP goop on both sides and torques to 100 ft pounds. I felt that was unlikely to be able to pull anything. So I did go far on them and I did have one very light crack of a breakthrough. Stopped as soon as I detected it. Was a little more careful on the other ports and I didn't have any other breakthroughs.

Now, first test drive and I noticed that when I'd sort of power through a turn (not hard) I'd produce quite a smoke show out the back. It had me wondering about oil slosh and such but then when I had it on the motorway as I powered past a lorry I thought, "aha! It has to be the valve seals. I didn't replace them." It made a lot of sense. I'd had the valves in and out of the head several times, left the valve seals in. Of course they would be torn up. Spark plugs showed oil fouling on three badly, three medium and I had two cylinders that seemed perfect still.

Took a while for valve seals to arrive. Changed them on Monday night. Just did a test drive today. Was fairly hopeful, I'll admit. Car definitely seemed to be running a little better. Got to the first few turns where I'd smoked before and no smoke. Felt good. Then got to a bit of an uphill with a series of bends. Took it with a bit of throttle and BAM! I'm James Bond again. Smoke show. On these small country roads with traffic it's hard to get many places where I can just stand on it and not many places are straight. I was trying to think. New valve seals on now (used WD-40 and the plastic applicator so they all should be good). What's left? PCV valve? Suddenly a problem with oil ring in one of the holes? Can't think why. And, I suppose, I've got to consider the possibility that oil is getting sucked past that 100 ft/lb head bolt and washer. Could it be?

Anyway, was hoping for a few more experienced folks to bounce it off. Pretty bummed. I can't even really explore whether the heads have changed the performance if I dare not give it much stick. I felt like the sweet spot for triggering smoke was to go heavyish in the primaries (but before secondary tip in) and hold it there for a few seconds. I feel like it starts smoking then even before lift-off. It's not a simple case of a sudden lift-off giving smoke or a downshift.

Only other thing that happened at the same time was I had to seal up my well plugs on the QuadraJet. One of the primary and one of the secondary wells were leaking so I had to seal up all four. As far as I can tell that's holding fine. But I guess I won't know for sure until next time I take off the carb and see if the gasket is swelled.

Sam

P.S. I guess the other thing to mention with full disclosure is that I haven't precisely reset the valve lashes. I had them lashed from the bottom, not the top. I did a sanity check of hand turning the motor twice over before trying to fire it. It does run, idle and everything fine. But I haven't rechecked all the lashes. Some might be lashed a bit tight, I suppose, if the set screws moved a little (I did put all the rockers back on the same posts etc.). I did also visually check that none of the set screws were visually much out of line with the others. But let's say lash was a little tight somewhere, it wouldn't give you smoke, would it? I will relash of course. Just trying to mention anything that could be relevant

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Last edited by glhs#116; 04-26-2023 at 03:56 PM.
  #2  
Old 04-26-2023, 04:21 PM
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That’s a bummer. If you haven’t looked yet you could start by pulling the plugs out, look for a plug that is black, and see if you can track down which cylinder is sucking oil. Go from there.

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Old 04-26-2023, 04:38 PM
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Sorry to hear of the issues your having Sam.

The main restriction in those heads is the stock valve job and the way the head bolt boss juts out from the common wall between both intake ports.

These heads typically flow less then 270 intake cfm out of the box and after a rework of the valve job go over 285 cfm.

Also as cast the roof In the runner of these heads are actually too tall for the as shipped stock size intake port gasket.

In other words they are made to have the intake ports use the RA4 / SD455 height gasket.

It’s good you have these on a 455 because this factor of overly tall intake ports effects around town drivability on motors of 400 cid or less, especially with rear gears of 3.42 or less.

These heads are also known to be shipped with too tight a valve stem clearance which can make a valve hang up, or ware the guide fast and then there goes your oil control and power .

NOTE that in each head two of the valve cover bolts holes break into the intake ports, so if your not applying sealer to the bolt or stud your using for the valve cover then oil can get sucked into the intake ports that way.

If your valve guides or valve stems are getting loose from the ware of being set up from day one in too tight a guide then no valve stem seal will do it’s job well when the rocking valve is making what was a nice round hole oval.

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Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

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Last edited by steve25; 04-26-2023 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 04-26-2023, 05:30 PM
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be sure you put sealant on the intake rocker stud as it goes into the intake port, as well as the valve cover bolts.

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
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Old 04-27-2023, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Fix View Post
be sure you put sealant on the intake rocker stud as it goes into the intake port, as well as the valve cover bolts.
Skip,

You know... Good point. Of course I've had those studs in and out. And they bolt in with the pushrod plate in between. I've seen those bolt holes on the inside of each runner. And I didn't put the studs back in with sealant. Hopefully we have a winner! I'll go redo those with blue loctite when I have a chance. That might well be it.

Regarding those valve guides. Yes, they sure come tight. Practically had to pound some of the valves out. But I did make sure to see that none of them were too tight by the time I put it all back together. And even the tightest of them aren't really tight once the top of the stem is out of the guide hole. And even the loosest of them doesn't really have any measurable rocking to it. I'm fairly sure that all should be OK..

Regarding the ports themselves. Yeah, those are really big! Of course I'm already on the RAIV intake gaskets beause it's an HO motor with an HO intake. I definitely didn't feel like anything needed to be any bigger. Just those head bolt bosses stick out pretty far into the stream so it seemed obvious to me they needed knocking back as much as possible. And of course trying to flatten and widen the floor before the short turn. The other thing I did was take the four intake bolt holes that are supposed to hold the plastic intake gasket locators and Drilled it a short way in with a half inch drill bit like the factory heads have. That way I was able to use the orange plastic gasket locator washers to make sure the intake gasket stayed aligned as I bolted it all together. Not sure why Edelbrock didn't feel the need to do that part.

I'll report back after I seal up the rocker studs. Fingers crossed.

Sam

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  #6  
Old 04-27-2023, 02:25 PM
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My first E heads I did not see anything in the instructions about sealing them. My motor sitting at an idle for a long time would start puffing some smoke-too much oil on top end. Stopped after sealing the rocker and valve cover studs.

With a 259/262 solid roller the HO intake was a restriction for my moderately ported E heads. Finally reworked a Shaker base for a Holley and T2.

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
  #7  
Old 04-28-2023, 05:42 PM
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I've got to stop being so impatient. So I'm mostly convinced the rocker studs is the issue. I say mostly because the test drive I mostly didn't have any smoke. I was able to provoke some but it took a lot more doing.

I'm pretty sure that is because I really hurried the "sealing the rocker studs" bit. I basically ripped them off, wiped them off, sprayed in some brake clean in the hole and threw it together with some blue lactite on the threads. I'm guessing that probably didn't make for a full seal on all the holes. I'm guessing I need to take it all apart again and this time like really really clean and de-oil the stud threads, the pushrod plates and get the holes really clean.

Sam

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Old 04-28-2023, 05:42 PM
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I've got to stop being so impatient. So I'm mostly convinced the rocker studs is the issue. I say mostly because the test drive I mostly didn't have any smoke. I was able to provoke some but it took a lot more doing.

I'm pretty sure that is because I really hurried the "sealing the rocker studs" bit. I basically ripped them off, wiped them off, sprayed in some brake clean in the hole and threw it together with some blue lactite on the threads. I'm guessing that probably didn't make for a full seal on all the holes. I'm guessing I need to take it all apart again and this time like really really clean and de-oil the stud threads, the pushrod plates and get the holes really clean.

Sam

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  #9  
Old 04-29-2023, 04:10 AM
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Not sure why you believe the smoke is an internal problem. Rocker studs without sealant really can't suck that much oil. I would suspect an external oil leak hitting the exhaust manifold. Have you had someone follow you and see if the smoke is coming out the exhaust pipes or simply from underneath the car?

You mentioned less smoke after sealing the rocker studs, but I wonder if you didn't tighten down the valve cover a little better reducing the amount of oil getting out and down on the exhaust?

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Old 04-29-2023, 06:23 AM
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I don’t use a loc-tite to seal up stud holes that open into intake ports , liquid Teflon only works in blind holes and Teflon tape is a crap shoot since your not dealing with pipe threads.

I use gray silicone form-a- gasket and it needs to set up overnight before the motor is put back in use.

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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
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Old 04-29-2023, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve25 View Post
I don’t use a loc-tite to seal up stud holes that open into intake ports , liquid Teflon only works in blind holes and Teflon tape is a crap shoot since your not dealing with pipe threads.

I use gray silicone form-a- gasket and it needs to set up overnight before the motor is put back in use.
Steve, thanks. People don't usually define "sealant on the threads" what they mean.

And I'm afraid in my life I've had an old 70s Honda, then an 80s Chrysler, then the Pontiac. And all have been "blind hole" engines for the most part. Maybe if I'd done loads of Chevy work like the rest of the world I'd be more up on this bit but honestly it wasn't anything I really had to worry about until now. The valve cover bolt holes shocked me when I first got the E heads and I dealt with them, as I recall, with some bits of cut off bolts and JBWeld and just use short bolts for that side of the valve cover. But the rocker studs are things I think I might need to remove at times. I must say when I disassembled the heads the factory thread sealant did look, at a glance, a lot like blue loctite.. I'll redo the operation with better cleanliness and some RTV instead.

Sam

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Old 04-29-2023, 07:10 AM
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I have never had RTV fail me once it’s allowed to cure fully, and I have had Loctite work in rocker stud holes in iron heads, but the expansion and contraction of Aluminum heads plus the vibration / cycling back and forth of the studs tends to fail blue Loctite, and you don’t want to use Red there on a Aluminum head.

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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
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Old 04-29-2023, 03:10 PM
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"Rocker studs without sealant really can't suck that much oil. "

Yes they will!!

Steve I have 3 motor with E heads and Permatex Teflon Sealer. No issues. I does set up a little so does not stay liquid

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
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Old 04-29-2023, 03:11 PM
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"Rocker studs without sealant really can't suck that much oil. "

Yes they will!!

Steve I have 3 motor with E heads and Permatex Teflon Sealer #14
. No issues. I does set up a little so does not stay liquid

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
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Old 04-29-2023, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Fix View Post
"Rocker studs without sealant really can't suck that much oil. "

Yes they will!!

Steve I have 3 motor with E heads and Permatex Teflon Sealer. No issues. I does set up a little so does not stay liquid
Truth!

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Old 04-29-2023, 09:15 PM
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So I took the rockers off again tonight. I actually decided to engage my brain this time and I only took off the eight rocker studs that actually go into intake runners. I again cleaned with brake clean. Dried off the rocker studs. I gooped on some RTV and reassembled. I'll not try and run it until tomorrow afternoon. I did reassemble everything though and set lash. Fingers crossed.

Sam

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Old 04-30-2023, 07:09 AM
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Cool!��

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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
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Old 04-30-2023, 09:32 AM
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I didnt take much at all off of the head bolt bulge on mine, there has to be something to transfer clap load to the head / block surface and aluminum is a poor metal to do that to start with combined with 4 1/2 bolts a cylinder that load is more consentrated in few'er spots

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Old 04-30-2023, 09:58 AM
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Have you looked deeply into heads that have been so called “ wide ported “ ?
They still clamp down just fine for high Hp production!

As always head gasket wise when you look at the percentage of failures it’s mostly from the heat of two center exh ports and there far faster rate of expansion and contraction ( sheering) of the gasket.

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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
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Old 04-30-2023, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve25 View Post
Have you looked deeply into heads that have been so called “ wide ported “ ?
They still clamp down just fine for high Hp production!

As always head gasket wise when you look at the percentage of failures it’s mostly from the heat of two center exh ports and there far faster rate of expansion and contraction ( sheering) of the gasket.


And often they use hat washers under the bolt head to make it work and any head gasket that doesnt have enough clamp load will fail first at the hottest thinnest point, but go ahead with that awesome logic

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