#61  
Old 05-15-2023, 07:21 PM
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The part that I find puzzling and also the part that indicates you should look elsewhere is the fact you assembled the top end after the porting the same way you did prior to the porting when it ran without significant issues.

The oil behind the intake valve is indicative of a loose guide in combination with a failed valve stem seal. You will get smoke on startup from the accumulated oil which typically goes away right after startup and doesn't smoke on acceleration. On deceleration, when you will get a puff of smoke that disappears as soon as you're on the gas again.

Honestly, the whole thing is puzzling. It almost acts like an overfilled (oil) sump.

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Old 05-16-2023, 01:05 AM
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The more I think about it the only thing that makes any lick of sense to me is the bloody rocker studs just still not sealing up. I mean, initial dry assembly I didn't bother with sealant because I didn't realise the issue it could be. Then I sealed it with the blue threadlocker but I wasn't serious about the cleanup. Then I did the blue RTV but I didn't manage to dry out the holes and I think the wet brake clean just ate the RTV because on this last disassembly I found most of the threads bare of RTV and the bit at the top sort of mushy and slimy. Now on this last try I did clean and dry everything properly but I couldn't decide between the blue threadlocker (which on the bottle says it seals threads) and the RTV (which some here claim always works) and did the threadlocker on the end threads and some red RTV near the top. Now, I'd have thought that should do it but I do know that my blue threadlocker is probably 15 years old. I also know the Permatex Red RTV I used has a 2018 expiry date stamped on it. And, of course, no guarantees that these two chemicals will work happily alongside each other. Both had sat on shelves in Qatar in the heat for years.

In my mind, valve seals have to be ruled out. None of the valve guides are sloppy loose (as some have pointed out, in typical ehead fashion they're actually on the tight side). And the seals on there are fresh never-sat-on-the-shelf actual Edelbrock valve seals which should be identical to what was on there before. Really carefully installed too. So that's got to be out.

In my mind that really has to mean that something is still up with those damned rocker studs. It's the only thing going to multiple intake runners on both heads. Yeah, that or that shift solenoid. But I did have a peak at the vacuum line and there's nothing wet going into the carb. I've got some Permatex 243 coming on order which is the one thing that seems to promise to be for this sort of application (passive and active metals) and says it should still work even if some oil and contaminants remain (although I'm going to try for a thorough clean again). I guess the only thing I can really believe at this point is that somehow those studs just still aren't sealing. I am using modern 5W-30 oil so when the engine gets warm it does need to be a really good seal. That stuff does find any small gap. But it's what I've used for the last six or seven years without issue.

Sam

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Last edited by glhs#116; 05-16-2023 at 01:13 AM.
  #63  
Old 05-16-2023, 03:45 PM
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Sam with the motor fully warmed up and at idle do you see smoke puffing out of the tail pipes after cylinders fire, or is it constant ?
When valve seals are bad or you have oil coming in from the rocker studs or valve cover bolt holes it will puff.

Also if you start of with clean plugs and run the motor on a drive until you see smoke then if you view the plugs oil coming in for whatever Thru the intake valve will show up mainly on one side of the plugs and thus ruling out oil getting passed the rings.

One thing I would suggest for you to test/ look at is how much oil is coming out of your rockers.

The reason is that it’s possible to have lifters with a issue that will have then moving far more oil up top then they should.
This will overwhelm otherwise good valve seals and especially so with the E heads.
Use a cardboard set up as in this photo to keep oil splash on the exh to a minimum.

It’s also a good move when you do this to lay out a tub shaped sheet of aluminum foil on top of the plugs and over the exh manifolds
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  #64  
Old 05-16-2023, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve25 View Post
Sam with the motor fully warmed up and at idle do you see smoke puffing out of the tail pipes after cylinders fire, or is it constant ?
When valve seals are bad or you have oil coming in from the rocker studs or valve cover bolt holes it will puff.

Also if you start of with clean plugs and run the motor on a drive until you see smoke then if you view the plugs oil coming in for whatever Thru the intake valve will show up mainly on one side of the plugs and thus ruling out oil getting passed the rings.

One thing I would suggest for you to test/ look at is how much oil is coming out of your rockers.

The reason is that it’s possible to have lifters with a issue that will have then moving far more oil up top then they should.
This will overwhelm otherwise good valve seals and especially so with the E heads.
Use a cardboard set up as in this photo to keep oil splash on the exh to a minimum.

It’s also a good move when you do this to lay out a tub shaped sheet of aluminum foil on top of the plugs and over the exh manifolds
Steve,

I'm definitely going to try for a good clean and reseal when I get the new sealant. However, to your questions..

I would say that once things are all warmed up (not just warmed at idle until choke is off but like actually taken out for a drive warmed up) there's a fairly constant smoke that I can make bigger with a big rev but that then continues.

As to the amount of oil reaching the rockers. Yes, it's a lot. I had to do a running engine valve lash and the oil was really flying. Although, again not sure why that would change as a before/after. The lifters never even came out...

Oh, and as I mentioned. The compression test after the head work was similar to the one taken a year ago but actually a bit more even cylinder to cylinder. I attributed this to the fact that I lapped the valves and maybe the out-of-box valve seal wasn't as good as it now is.

Sam

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  #65  
Old 05-16-2023, 05:04 PM
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A few years ago a friend of mine had a brand new engine top to bottom .

He had new heads that he/ we did not assemble this time around.

Once we started the motor hooked up to the exh system after a break in on a stand we found that as soon as the motor started to show some water temp of 120 or more that we saw the tailpipes start to show puffs of oil smoke.

After a full day of trying to figure out why this was and even removing a valve spring to look if a seals where riding up off the stems we pulled a head off and found that the head had been assembled with seals for .372” stem valves and not the .342” valves that the heads had.

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Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

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  #66  
Old 05-21-2023, 08:39 PM
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OK. It's a real pain trying to do this with the heads on the car. Just so hard to get all solvent out of those stud holes. Especially the ones that are almost blind.

I really took my time cleaning and drying this time. The Permatex 243 is much better than the other stuff I had. It's actually a bit goopy and sticky. I followed the Permatex instructions which say to add a few drops to the hole as well as make a circle on the stud threads. I took it really slowly. A few holes still bubbled up solvent after all the cleaning and drying I could do. For these I bottomed the stud, added a few more drops of sealant, then re-applied.

I did find one crazy thing. Intake stud on #2 was like I hadn't tightened it properly. On closer examination they never cut that hole deep enough. It's shallow enough to bottom the stud before contact. I got my grinding wheel out and shortened that stud a couple threads to where I could tighten the bolt down before it bottomed out.

I'm going to wait until morning to even put the rockers on. Maybe do the lash tomorrow evening. I really hope this works. But I will say, I could believe it if it did. The sealant and RTV was off the studs when I pulled them apart from the last thread or two right at the top. I think they never sealed. Partly, probably, failure to get things dry enough (too much sovent still in there). But also partly, I don't think my old threadlock was good for this application. And I don't think the RTV set properly.

Praying for a good result.

Sam

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  #67  
Old 05-21-2023, 09:05 PM
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Fingers crossed for you !

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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
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Old 05-22-2023, 07:21 PM
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OK. Well, not to jinx anything or whatnot but I think this is the first time I've had what I would call a different result.

It's night time so not the best conditions for verifying if smoke comes out the back. But I decided after 20+ hours I'd put it back together. Even lashed the valves like an adult person doing them cylinder by cylinder. It settled down into a pretty smoke-free idle and I took it down the motorway to refill the tank (after all these failed test drives). I didn't really blast it at any point but it was a decent run of maybe twenty minutes including cruising at 70+ and some dips into the throttle. Not all of this was under street lights but I didn't see any smoke that I could be sure of. Back in the garage it was way less smokey. I want to say there was a thin blue haze hanging around after a few blips but I'm willing to chalk that up to "still burning stuff off". Let it idle for some time and apart from being pig rich smelling it seems pretty non-smokey.

So, it needs a daytime drive for confirmation but I've definitely improved things. I think this probably proves that those rocker studs never sealed up with the old sealant or RTV. I figure if I do still have some small amount of oil getting in the plugs will tell me where and I can just address that particular rocker stud or two. I feel pretty good at this point that the issue is there. I'm really hoping, though, that this is it done.

Thanks for all the help, everyone! I'll report back after a daytime run.

Sam

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  #69  
Old 05-22-2023, 07:59 PM
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Great news there Sam!
Rich smelling at hot idle can be from being too lean.

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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
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Old 05-23-2023, 02:23 PM
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OK. I've been like that crazy guy from the movie with the news clippings all over the wall and the red lines going everywhere. I do try to record things so I actually have pics of the plugs from each of these occasions. Only problem is they have only been changed once. Makes it harder to make sense of changes. So I'm throwing in my last new set and I've ordered more.

Oh yeah. Daylight drive was disappointing. Seemed like it was all going to be good but got to my twisting uphill and sure enough on the last corner a nice big puff of blue smoke. And also, sure enough if I really layed into the throttle I could make some smoke too after. Mostly I want to say, though, it was better. Like I said, less smoking last night after the first run in the garage. Revving it I can't make as much smoke as before. So I tore the plugs straight out of it before work this morning.

My one plug that was by far the worst was #7. Hairy with black fouling and wet on the ring with what I'm going to assume is unburnt fuel. Probably why the idle was stinging my eyes. Other than that I didn't trust the look of #2 or #6. Both fairly black and a little wet. So I pulled just those three studs and cleaned the hell out of them and their matching holes. I even got my tap out and ran it through the threads on hole and bolt. I solvented it all and dried it all with paper towel as much as possible. I put it together with a bit more goop as well. On top of that, I'm going to leave it over 24 hours before I start it even.

#7 is the only one that really worries me. Looking back it's been consistently fouling. But then, it also seems to be the rocker stud hole that has the biggest breakthrough into the runner at the bottom so it probably gets the most suction. Looking back to before I even did the head work that spark plug was dry but sootier than the others. I'm ruling out that headbolt breakthrough I mentioned at the start because while I'm not sure where it was I know it was either #3 or #5 because it wasn't an end runner and it was the driver's side head.

Anyway, plan is to run it in a day or two with new plugs and see what's what. Hopefully it's better. If it isn't at least the plugs should tell me where the issue lies..

Sam

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  #71  
Old 05-23-2023, 03:21 PM
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I am really starting to wonder if the oil drain back hole on the rear drivers side head is restricted, or maybe not even drilled?
These heads are known to have a drain back problem And when others and myself port up a set we also grind out a bigger channel to help them drain out faster at the rear of the motor.
If you lifters are moving more oil then what’s needed then that could be compounding the issue.

Just thinking out loud here Sam.

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And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
  #72  
Old 05-24-2023, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
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I am really starting to wonder if the oil drain back hole on the rear drivers side head is restricted, or maybe not even drilled?
These heads are known to have a drain back problem And when others and myself port up a set we also grind out a bigger channel to help them drain out faster at the rear of the motor.
If you lifters are moving more oil then what’s needed then that could be compounding the issue.

Just thinking out loud here Sam.
That really seemed pretty reasonable to me. I checked. I found some rubber vacuum hose that was about 13/32" diameter. I was able to push it all the way through on all four drain holes on each head. Unfortunately it looks like I've got all the drainage these heads were built with. Now, it's possible it needs more. But then the question would be "why does it suddenly need more?" Same oil, same driver, same roads...

Hopefully it's the rockers and now they are good. At least I hope to know more after the next test drive with new plugs...

Sam

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  #73  
Old 05-24-2023, 06:41 PM
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OK. So well over 24 hours setting time has passed. I missed my chance to go drive while the sun was up and I knew a drive in the dark wouldn't show me much. I was planning a drive in the morning but I just figured I'd fire it up in the garage and let it warm up. Well, that was very enlightening. As soon as it was all warmed up, here comes the smoke. Not a lot, but pretty noticeable in an enclosed space like the garage. Not hard to see the faint blue cloud in the air up by the lights. And of course you could smell it. Like after my previous night drive. But I didn't have to drive it. Just needed to get the whole engine warmed up.

So I thought, let's see what the new plugs say. To be honest, I never tried pulling new plugs that had only ever had a warmup at idle and a rev or two but no driving. Well, they all looked pretty damned clean. I guess that's what you get when you don't have much runtime or much heat in them. But they told me enough I think.

Whilst for the most part they all looked almost new there were some things I could see. #1 was starting to darken. This corresponds to the cylinder that gets darkest normally. I'm guessing that for whatever reason it just runs richer or something. But the telltales were #7 and #6. Now #7 was my really oily plug previously. And #6 was one of two I suspected on the passanger bank (along with #2). Well, they both still looked almost new but they also both came out with some wet oil on the strap. And while it wiped right off the other thing you could see was the shininess of the porcelain on #7 and #6 compared to the matte finish on the others. These were almost certainly my smokers.

So I thought to combine that with what else I knew. I knew that I'd surely sealed up those rocker studs this time. I knew that my oil is coming from the top because I saw it pooled behind a valve or two when the intake was off. I knew something was different since the porting. Well, I figure I'm down to one thing: the possibility of oil weeping in from the one headbolt bulge breakthrough I know about and perhaps another that I didn't notice (or that just went porous without breaking visibly). The other thing that arrived today was the ARP sealant. This is what ARP recommends when their bolts go into non-blind holes. Well, Pontiac headbolt holes are blind so the oil pull-in has to be from around the washer and bolt head at the top. I'm going to remove those headbolts one at a time and clean off the washer and head and replace the ARP lube with the ARP sealant there (I'll leave the standard ARP lube on the threads). There's only four of them that go past the runners and I'll do them one at a time.

That's the plan.

Sam

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  #74  
Old 05-25-2023, 06:03 AM
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Hey! In case I need to go that route, does anyone happen to have the exact diameter of these headbolt holes? Even better, a link for some thin wall brass tubing that someone has successfully used in the past on them? Needs to be something I can order from the internet. I won't have access to the kind of shop where you can browse for this stuff.

Sam

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Old 05-25-2023, 06:19 AM
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This is off the Jeg’s racing site.
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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
  #76  
Old 05-25-2023, 07:56 AM
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OK. Cool. I see those on Summit who I have an account with. So it's a 9/16" (0.5625") sleeve I need for Edelbrock Pontiac head headbolt sleeve?

Is it going to slide in or am I going to have to do some sort of gentle press fit?

Sam

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  #77  
Old 05-25-2023, 10:37 AM
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the only way to guarantee what you want to do goes snag free is to take that head bolt out and measure first, and you want a tight fit that doesnt distort the tube during insertion, during the head bolt out period you can also verify near exact length ( .010- .040 or so short ) to pre cut sleeve, and it should go in with loctite and you can use a simple bolt or all thread with a nut and washer to press it in

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Last edited by Formulas; 05-25-2023 at 10:44 AM.
  #78  
Old 05-26-2023, 05:48 AM
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Allow me to update the soap opera.

So, I could kind of see how things were likely to go as I did the work. All the headbolt holes showed evidence of oil getting in. Some more than others. The ARP sealant is, of course, a thread sealant and according to the packaging it doesn't set. I could kind of see after doing the first one that it was fairly likely that on a small surface like the washer and bolt head it would be prone to washing out. Well, but then I don't understand how something like that survives on threads in a non-blind hole without washing out. So, I dunno. At least it gave me an excuse to do the retorque on all the other headbolts I needed to do.

In any case, started and warmed it up and... Yup. Smoke. Took it for a drive just to rule out the smoke being from pooled oil from earlier and... Yup.

Measured the bolt holes. For the benefit of future searchers it looks like a 1/2" hole. Well, my calliper made it 33/64" or 1/2" plus 1/64" or 0.516". So it looks like the sleeve I want is the .500 one. Jegs want like $60 postage. Both Summit and Jegs won't ship til end of August. The drag and drive event I'm booked in for is mid-June. Anyway, after trawling across the internet I eventually found a model supplier with the identical 12" long .500" diameter .014" wall brass tubing. Hopefully here some time next week. I measured the hole depth on the head (it's easy to do from the side of the head) and it's basically a tiny bit longer than 3" like 3 and 1/3 or something. So cutting that tube in four equal pieces will yield me 3" lengths which should be perfect. Just hope they fit close enough to be sealable with threadlock and don't pinch the bolt. I assume it will be fine because it's the exact dimensions of the one Dart sell as a "head bolt sleeve"...

Stay tuned. If it's not this... I dunno. God give me strength!

Sam

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  #79  
Old 05-26-2023, 07:18 AM
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Buy new heads clean them and install

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Last edited by Formulas; 05-26-2023 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 05-26-2023, 07:51 AM
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Buy new heads clean them and install
LOL! "Install an LS"

I mean, clearly not...

Sam

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