[GOAT8U2]

Well to add to my engine issues here's the PCV deal...

New engine, no PCV, blowing oil out the rear main like crazy and winter Frothing of oil.

Original setup = PWR covers, breathers on each and they were modified for max flow. Frothing

Closed system PWR modified covers, 3/4 NPT fitting on each cover, both going to a catch can and getting suction from throttlebody. Frothing

In the IL winters I get Frothing, not in the other seasons. I believe part of this is due to their being NO pcv valve.

While the engines coming out soon, I got the Butler valley pan for roller rockers and PCV.

I'm thinking...

Ditch closed system with npt cover fittings, go back to open breathers on each cover.

Have the pcv go to the catch can and have the throttlebody pull vacuum until WOT.


Which makes engineering sense to kill condensation for winter Frothing of oil?

Thanks

[VCho455]

I have no clue as to what you mean with "winter frothing"???
What are the circumstances around this?
Are you driving the car for more than 10 miles so it gets up to temperature or just starting it up in the garage "To circulate the oil"?
Are you running any additives in the oil?

[GOAT8U2]

Oil Frothing, it's like a thin milkshake but not from Coolant.

During winter starts I make sure car gets to temp, 170 and beyond. Can't drive in January or February here, cold, salt etc.

[JLMounce]

Unless you are starting the car every couple days, there's no reason to start it during the winter, if it's not going to be driven. After a couple days, all of the oil film on the bearings, cylinder walls, rockers etc. is gone. Starting the car at this point for reasons other than driving it, only creates unnecessary engine wear. Better to put the car away in a completely winterized state and leave it until you're ready to summerize it and use it.

As far as the PCV goes. If we are discussing the engine in your signature, I would be reluctant to put a factory type PCV valve on this. It may or may not be adequate. Instead I would look at something like a Mighty Mouse Solutions or Motion Raceworks PCV system. They can design PCV systems that operate and provide crank case ventilation and oil separation at power levels above 800 hp. Going to the Butler pan with PCV is a good idea, it's what I use. Instead of having a stock type PCV valve there, I have a grommet with an AN fitting that flows to a MMS draft can.

[Schurkey]

Just about everyone who thinks they need a "catch can" actually needs better baffling of the PCV valve, and/or less blow-by. If there's oil in the PCV hose, SOMETHING IS WRONG.

You won't need breathers on both valve covers. You need a fresh-air source (which could be a breather) on a location opposite the PCV valve. This is tougher when the PCV valve is in the valley cover, but still work-able.

What thermostat is in that engine? Does the engine get up to proper operating temperature?

[steve25]

Other then for repair purposes and also any season of the year not only winter, you should not be starting the car / motor unless it can be driven long enough to get the engine oil temp hot enough to boil off condensation .

This is the root cause of your frothing issue.

If you want to get oil to move around through the motor if it’s been sitting for weeks then kill the powrr to the dizzy and take the plugs out to get it spinning as fast as possible.

If you use a oil additive like Lucus you will never have to be concerned with dry starts even after the motor having sat for 5 months.

You also need to know that a manufacturer study done a long time ago showed that a engine experiences up to 60% of all the ware that it ever will between the time when it’s cold and up to normal operating temperature, and this includes the motors oil temp.

Starting your motor and getting it up to 170 degrees while just sitting in your driveway is doing more harm then good!

[VCho455]

Originally Posted by GOAT8U2

Oil Frothing, it's like a thin milkshake but not from Coolant.

During winter starts I make sure car gets to temp, 170 and beyond. Can't drive in January or February here, cold, salt etc.

We run an oil temperature guage on the oil pan of our GTO and we have found with the engine running at 165 degrees on the highway driving at 55 mph, with little load (Flat ground no wind) in 60 degree weather, the oil temperature will stay around 180 degrees. Only when we put more load on the engine or the outside temperatures are in the mid 70's or higher will the oil temperature rise to 220 degrees which is where you need to be to get the moisture in the oil to boil off. Remember that water boils at 212 degrees.

Not everyone's engine runs as cool as ours does so others may have different results but the principles are the same. So under the conditions you described I would bet that your oil temperature is not getting above 220 degrees.

If the oil never gets hot enough (for long enough) the condensation in the pan and block is gets washed to the pan by the oil and whipped into the oil by the crank and oil pump, but the water never turns to steam and removed by the crankcase ventilation system. You would be much better off to install an oil pan heater or block heater to keep the engine above the dewpoint thus preventing any condensation from forming.

As always this is my opinion and along with a ten spot you can get a steaming cup of Joe just about anywhere.

[Ram Air IV Jack]

Someone here mentioned Lucas oil additive a few months back and described a unique display that was in many auto parts stores for years. I found some You Tube videos demonstrating this display and it made a believer out of me. We used to use STP to help with oil "cling" during start-ups, but Lucas is amazing and recommended if your car sits for weeks/months!!

[Brentco]

Another great option is the ME Wagner adjustable PCV valve. It’s not cheap, but, IMO, stock PCV valves won’t provide the correct amount of flow at the correct times when you have a highly modified high output engine, so you need a special valve.

You definitely need a PCV valve, and there are a lot of great discussions on the forum about the correct way to set up your PCV system. Check those out for all the details. Briefly, the PCV system needs to go in a loop — fresh air from one valve cover (ideally from a large hose to your air cleaner), PCV valve in valley pan plumbed to catch can (if desired) and then to carb port or other vacuum source. The other valve cover is plugged.

It sounds like what you’re calling a closed system has both valve covers connected to engine vacuum, and no fresh air source. That’s no bueno. There’s no incoming fresh air to balance out the outgoing crankcase vapors. Having breathers on both valve covers is better, but you’re still not getting the push pull effect from a looped system. And you had two breathers with no PCV, so there was nothing to control the flow of vapors. So it makes sense that neither of the setups you tried worked. I have never heard of frothy oil arising from PCV issues, but I suppose it could make sense if there’s no valve and the combustion gases are running rampant. Either way, you’re going to want to get your PCV system nailed down correctly.

Also, if you’re talking about the Butler valley pan that is just a single curved sheet of metal, I would advise against that route. Pontiacs need very good baffling, and although Butler has improved the baffling in that pan, IMO it still isn’t adequate for a lot of applications. Given the output of your engine and the fact that you’re already having issues, I would recommend against that one. The Tomahawk pan (also sold through Butler) works much better — it replicates the factory baffling, which is much more extensive, and still provides clearance for rockers. Speaking of baffling, you didn’t mention any baffling in the valve cover. That’s a must and may allow you to eventually get rid of the catch can.

@JLMounce — I haven’t heard of the Motion Raceworks PCV system, and I’m not seeing it on their website? Just curious because I’m not familiar.

[Sirrotica]

Anything that promotes oil clinging to the internal parts is going to thicken the oil, changing the pour point of the oil. The oil manufacturers do a ton of work engineering an additive package that has to meet expectations at all temperatures. If you think you have more skills at engineering your oil, then you're probably working at the wrong job, you should be a petrochemical engineer. Any oil company technician I've ever talked to has never recommended running any additives in the oil because it upsets the total engineered package.

I've never run any oil additives in my street cars, or race cars. If I had a worn out engine I've used motor honey to keep it running because I didn't want to rebuild it, or couldn't afford it. In a sound engine there is little value of running the sticky stuff.

Although many people over years have touted certain oils, and certain additives, I have never seen anything that can be poured into the crankcase that makes a huge difference in the engine oils ability to make a noticeable difference in the engines running, or power levels. Keeping the oil clean as you can is going to pay more dividends in longevity, and economy, than what label is on the can you pour into the engine.

Anyone reading this is free to put whatever they want in their engines, but after spending 50 plus years in the automotive field repairing most anything with wheels, and an engine, building, and racing dirt track cars, I have seen nothing that makes me think that some oil additive company has a miracle in a bottle that no one else has.

And yes, I've seen the Lucas display in parts stores that shows their additive sticks to gear sets, and climbs the gears as you spin the handle. It hasn't impressed me.

FWIW, I quickly did a search to see if Lucas has any patents on their oil products, I wasn't able to find patents on any oil products, but they do own the patent for the gear demonstrator that was used to promote their additive products in parts stores.........

The frothing is commonly seen in a high humidity atmosphere engine that never gets the oil warm enough to vaporize the condensation in the crankcase. Having serviced hundreds of cars you'll find it in cars that get driven short distances and never really get warmed up. You also have to have a humid climate, you won't usually find it in a car in Arizona, but around the ocean, or the great lakes you'll see it more often. I've seen a couple cars that had so much condensation in them, that the dipstick rusted in half, not common, but I've seen it a couple times. Some oil cooler systems incorporate a thermostat to get the oil up to temp to stop this phenomenon. OEM oil coolers run through the radiator to not only cool the oil, but to also get it hot during cold weather.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Anything that promotes oil clinging to the internal parts is going to thicken the oil, changing the pour point of the oil. The oil manufacturers do a ton of work engineering an additive package that has to meet expectations at all temperatures. If you think you have more skills at engineering your oil, then you're probably working at the wrong job, you should be a petrochemical engineer. Any oil company technician I've ever talked to has never recommended running any additives in the oil because it upsets the total engineered package.

I've never run any oil additives in my street cars, or race cars. If I had a worn out engine I've used motor honey to keep it running because I didn't want to rebuild it, or couldn't afford it. In a sound engine there is little value of running the sticky stuff.

Although many people over years have touted certain oils, and certain additives, I have never seen anything that can be poured into the crankcase that makes a huge difference in the engine oils ability to make a noticeable difference in the engines running, or power levels. Keeping the oil clean as you can is going to pay more dividends in longevity, and economy, than what label is on the can you pour into the engine.

Anyone reading this is free to put whatever they want in their engines, but after spending 50 plus years in the automotive field repairing most anything with wheels, and an engine, building, and racing dirt track cars, I have seen nothing that makes me think that some oil additive company has a miracle in a bottle that no one else has.

And yes, I've seen the Lucas display in parts stores that shows their additive sticks to gear sets, and climbs the gears as you spin the handle. It hasn't impressed me.

FWIW, I quickly did a search to see if Lucas has any patents on their oil products, I wasn't able to find patents on any oil products, but they do own the patent for the gear demonstrator that was used to promote their additive products in parts stores.........

True, except for Lucas. I called their tech and asked them if they recommend their own oil additive to their oil. Told me yes so I bought some of their 10-30 Racing Synthetic.
The people at Shaffers do not recommend oil additives either. BUT, they make their own Micron Molly additive that feels a lot like Lucas to me. But a little bit thinner and feels more slippery. It is clingy like the Lucas additive.
Shaffers says that if you add some of their Micron Molly additive to their Micron Molly Synthetic Racing Oil it will have too much of it as their oil already has it.
So, this is as not as cut and dry as some think.
I do know one thing. I have had Lucas in everything I own for years and years. Never blown up a engine in my life. Not even spun a rod bearing.
Its even in my lawn mower I bought in 1994 and still running. Been through 3-4 decks but the engine is still strong.
Lucas is proven OK in my book.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

True, except for Lucas. I called their tech and asked them if they recommend their own oil additive to their oil. Told me yes so I bought some of their 10-30 Racing Synthetic.
The people at Shaffers do not recommend oil additives either. BUT, they make their own Micron Molly additive that feels a lot like Lucas to me. But a little bit thinner and feels more slippery. It is clingy like the Lucas additive.
Shaffers says that if you add some of their Micron Molly additive to their Micron Molly Synthetic Racing Oil it will have too much of it as their oil already has it.
So, this is as not as cut and dry as some think.
I do know one thing. I have had Lucas in everything I own for years and years. Never blown up a engine in my life. Not even spun a rod bearing.
Its even in my lawn mower I bought in 1994 and still running. Been through 3-4 decks but the engine is still strong.
Lucas is proven OK in my book.

And I've used Pennzoil without any additives, and have the same results.

Lucas has a ton of money to spend of owning race tracks, cattle ranches, railroads, and sponsors of a few racing series. The money is coming from people that believe in their products. They do make quality oils, and greases, but they also make plenty of money, and aggressively advertise their products heavily. As I said I've never seen anything that comes in a bottle that will make a huge difference over using a major manufacturers premium quality oils.

If their stuff is so great, why isn't any of it patented? Something that is so superior over their competition should be protected by a patent, wouldn't you say?

My father was a mechanic all of his life, he was very good at his trade. He used to change his oil, and filter every 1000 miles, never had any engine failures in anything he owned. After he retired, somehow he must have heard a pitch for Slick 50 at sometime, and started using it in his cars religiously. Miracle of miracles he never had any failures after he started using Slick 50, he never had any failure before either. Yeah that would convince me it was a great product............LMAO

Since it's hey day in the 80s and 90s it's become increasingly hard to find, they still make it, but it's nowhere near in demand as it was when the company had all their infomercials on late night TV. Aggressive advertising will convince people of most anything they want to believe.

Shaffer is somewhat like Amsoil, sold through dealer network, top quality products, but expensive. There are many good quality oils out there, but if you find one that is 5-10% better than another one, (proven by third party testing, not just claimed to be superior by the advertising) you hit the jackpot. They aren't all that far apart overall.

ARCO used to have graphite impregnated motor oil, that went by the wayside too. Read up on oils that have solids blended in them, the idea may be appealing, but in actual practice it doesn't work out very well.

Show me some independent testing that Lucas has something no one else has, then you might get my attention, until then I'm going to reserve my judgement.

It may come as a surprise to you, but many oils use molybdenum as an anti wear agent. Because the Japanese tend to like to use timing chains, rather than belts, and OHC engines use long timing chains, they love high moly oils to prevent wear on those long chains. Moly does extend the life of timing chains, not sure if it makes a huge difference on each and every internal engine part though. Again, independent third party testing, not hearsay.

I'm nothing more than a 70 YO mechanic, don't have any degrees, but tend to use common sense, I've seen a lot of stuff over the years claimed to be the latest, and greatest in oils, and additives. I try to keep up with technologies that apply to automobiles. I'm still not seeing any additives, or oils that are head and shoulders above anything else out there on the market. There are lots of claims, but no lab reports that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that one company has cornered the market on superior oils, or additives.

I had to laugh at two of the reasons the BITOG (Bob Is The Oil Guy) forum was founded. To disprove the claims that Lucas makes about it's products, and to promote how good Shaffer oil is. You might have half of your reasons substantiated about Lucas, and Shaffer oil, and products.

[Dragncar]

Lucas does especially well in small engines. Not too many lawn mowers run for 30 years of constant use. Bet I get 40 out of it.
I am not the only one here who run Lucas in their old Pontiacs. Plenty here use it that have done a lot more than I have with a Pontiac.

[Ram Air IV Jack]

Oils and additives have been debated for decades and will continue to be for years to come. Everyone is comfortable with a certain oil or additive and others see it another way. For example, I was warned about Pennzoil back in the 70's by many master mechanics I trusted. I was told by these mechanics they could always tell when Pennzoil was used in an engine because of the wax build-up and golden color all over the oil pan and crankcase. Too much paraffin so avoid I was told and use Valvoline instead. Where I work, we sell many brands of oil and Pennzoil is at the bottom of the list by many customers I speak with. Yet, many trust it and have used it for years as someone pointed out. To me, use what YOU think is best and ignore others' opinions. Do your own research and then try and come up with your own conclusions!

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Ram Air IV Jack

Oils and additives have been debated for decades and will continue to be for years to come. Everyone is comfortable with a certain oil or additive and others see it another way. For example, I was warned about Pennzoil back in the 70's by many master mechanics I trusted. I was told by these mechanics they could always tell when Pennzoil was used in an engine because of the wax build-up and golden color all over the oil pan and crankcase. Too much paraffin so avoid I was told and use Valvoline instead. Where I work, we sell many brands of oil and Pennzoil is at the bottom of the list by many customers I speak with. Yet, many trust it and have used it for years as someone pointed out. To me, use what YOU think is best and ignore others' opinions. Do your own research and then try and come up with your own conclusions!

Actually I don't believe any major oil is any, if much better than it's competitors oils. I use Pennzoil because I've had good luck with it, but I've used Walmart Super Tech when conditions dictated it, the engine stayed together just fine. I've used Valvoline, as well as NAPA, which is Valvoline in a NAPA bottle. So much for my bias, or loyalty to a certain brand. I do defend Pennzoil when someone comes up with the sludge stories that their uncles third cousin told them about. People do confuse Quaker State with Pennzoil because they're both PA based oils. When you ask them if it was a green can the truth comes out.

You surely got some bad information about Pennzoil, I owned a Pennzoil service station in Erie PA about 45 miles from the Rouseville PA Pennzoil refinery. My Father also ran a Pennzoil service station years before that. Since 1977 I've used nothing but Pennzoil in everything I owned, my Father used it in all of his cars also. We both made our livings as mechanics Used it in race cars, and every engine I've ever built, as well as every daily driver I've owned. So your friends that condemned it, I believe were confusing Quaker State, with Pennzoil.

If you look at the third picture in my signature and look at the front fender of the race car you'll see my last name "YOST" and the Pennzoil logo on my 69 Grand Prix SJ 428 powered race car, the name of my service station was Yost Pennzoil. I do know a few things about Pennzoil Oil, and it's products. The Pennzoil Jobber sponsored my race car by providing me with racing oil for the sponsorship. They also sponsored a late model race car that a guy I worked at a buick dealership raced. He raced for over 20 years with zero engine problems using guess what oil, that's correct Pennzoil racing oil exclusively........ If he used Valvoline, he probably would have had the same record.

Quaker State, not Pennzoil, had an additive package that their engineers designed in house in the late 60s, early 70s that would sludge up even a engine that was meticulously maintained with oil changes every 2000 miles. I could open up one of those engines and tell the owner what oil they were using. They were amazed when I told them what oil they were using, yes Quaker State, not Pennzoil.

Believe me, I have done more oil and filter research than probably most people on this board, plus I have 50 years of actual engine related experience to back it up, not opinions. When I have oil related problems the tech line is where I seek answers, not asking customers where I work, or (your term} "master mechanics".........

To further refute your claim about Pennzoil, if used exclusively on a low mileage car, they guarantee that you will be able to run 10 years, or 300,000 miles with conventional oil, or 15 years or 500,000 miles with synthetic oil. If oil and filter is documented at the mileage the vehicle manufacturer suggests. The warranty is free, and they will stand any engine repairs incurred during that time 100%. Find another oil company that will give you a no cost, half million mile warranty, good luck.... If it were as inferior a product as you suggest, according to customers opinions, and "master mechanics" opinions, could they offer free engine warranty's on engines? They'd go broke in a few years if their product was inferior, as you elude to.

Pennzoil, and Quaker State were combined under one corporation in 1998 through 2002, further confusing which oil was made by which company. Then both were bought out by Shell Oil Products United States, or SOPUS. Shell moved production from Oil City PA, to Houston Texas at that time. Just some further trivia about PA grade crude oils, Wolfs Head was also another local oil, Pennzoil purchased Wolfs Head and the cans/bottles contained the exact same oil that went into the yellow Pennzoil containers. Wolfs Head was founded in 1879, Pennzoil purchased it in 1963. In 2002 when Shell purchased Pennzoil, the Wolfs Head name was sold off to Amalie Oil.

The Pontiac dealer I worked for in 1970 also exclusively used Pennzoil products. No sludge in any of the cars that had regular oil changes at the time it was 2-3000 miles.

Just to summarize this for you, i started making my living in 1970 as a mechanic, and retired in 2012. None of the stories you've told about Pennzoil have any basis in my experience, nor anyone I know in the automotive field. That includes my fathers experience starting in 1935, and my experience until present, about 88 years. I lived within an hour of the former Pennzoil refinery, so I have plenty of practical knowledge living in the area the majority of my lifetime.

Do I think Pennzoil is the gold standard of oils? No I don't, as I've already stated, most any quality oil is plenty sufficient to run your car until the body wears out. Some of the hard earned knowledge I've gained over the years is the difference of oil related problems in engines is related to oil cleanliness, not what label is on the bottle. Pennzoil emphasizes getting the contaminants out of the crankcase to qualify for their high mileage engine warranty. If the oil reaches it's saturation point it will no longer perform it's job, and damage will ensue.

I have no idea where you work, but Pennzoil is one of the highest rated oils on the market based on third party testing, not your customers opinions. YOU should do some reference on real world testing, and results. Listening to opinions, without real facts to sort out garbage is what starts oil related arguments on the internet.

You'll be pleased to know that Pennzoil is no longer refined from PA crude oil, none of that nasty paraffin in it, the bad news is Valvoline is made from PA grade crude, always has been, which is what you cited was the downfall of Pennzoil according to your "master mechanics" opinions. Yep, Valvoline has paraffin in it. It's made in Ashland KY, and the only oil around KY is, you guessed it, PA grade crude, with a paraffin base oil.......

Quote about PA grade crude that pretty much dispels your "master mechanics" opinions:

PennGrade 1 claims to still use Pennsylvania crude. It is part of D-A Lubricants, who bought out Brad Penn a few years back. "It is the same unique Pennsylvania Grade base oil cut and the specially selected high-zinc, high-phosphorus formulation that's been known and trusted by high-performance engine builders and vehicle owners for decades."

Pennzoil engineers have perfected a process so that their oil is made from natural gas, sidestepping the possibility of having contaminated crude oil with soil particles introduced into it through the drilling, and recovery process. Again, Pennzoil is going for the cleanest possible oil available so it's not contaminated with solids when it comes from the factory. The process using natural gas to make oil can be up to 30% cleaner than oil made from crude oil. Again, starting with clean oil, fresh from the factory is an option, and an advantage the competition doesn't have.

Clean oil is the basis for engine longevity, not what company puts their label on it. Oils from major manufacturers are closer to each other, than they are different, and the tiny differences are inconsequential among all brands. If you swap from Pennzoil to Valvoline, the engine isn't going to know the difference, nor will you.

I deal in facts, not opinions/hearsay, because just like belly buttons, everyone has one. The facts separate the opinions from truth. If there's any facts you'd like to know about Pennzoil just ask, be happy to let you in on everything I know about Pennzoil.

Have a nice day Jack.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Brentco

@JLMounce — I haven’t heard of the Motion Raceworks PCV system, and I’m not seeing it on their website? Just curious because I’m not familiar.

I could have sworn they had a PCV option in their oil separator line. Apparently not, as all I see are their draft setup cans. That would leave MMS for a high power PCV solution.

I run the MMS draft can because my engine has a bit of blowby.

[GOAT8U2]

Thanks for the replies

I recently got the Tomahawk valley pan kit from Butler, seemed like a nice piece. I'll run a pcv 10an fitting vs a traditional valve.

I ran the car at idle for 10-15 minutes, fan turn on at 190.
I like the idea of constant oil on parts to keep lubricated and to stop possible rust during our crazy change in temps and humidity etc here in IL.

I didn't want no pcv, machine shop did that, but that's changing and I'm going back to ...

Big breather on each valve cover, PCV fitting into closed catch can pulled by engine vacuum. Possible electric vacuum pump on the catch can at 50% + TPS to pull on Crankcase under load.

[Hesster1977]

"New engine, no PCV, blowing oil out the rear main like crazy and winter Frothing of oil."

Yep - I suffered with Rear Main leaks on my modded Pontiac 400 block. Especially after upping the horsepower. I tried everything - ditched the Rope Seal and went with Viton, tried various PVC set-up's, Catch Cans, etc.

I don't know what it is with Pontiac Engines making so much Crankcase pressure?

Finally went with a Butler Crankcase Evac Kit - expensive, but it works great. Problem solved.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Well i never used oil additives. But tried STP once out of curiosity and figured no way anymore to protect the oil pump

This Thread does loosen the thought: What would adding Limited Slip DiFF additive to engine oil? Would it stop the Flat Lifters from spinning? Or turn into plastic gel around the rings?

[geeteeohguy]

I agree with Brad Yost 100%. I'm a 62 year old retired mechanic with thousands of repairs under my belt and my reality aligns with his.