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Old 07-08-2022, 10:39 PM
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Default Solid lifter valve springs question

In the mid 2000s Dave at SD ported a set of original (to the car) 670 heads for me and I thought maybe it would be a good idea to replace the valve springs, even though the engine really hasn't had any use in the past several years as I was doing a frame off restomod build.

I have all the receipts from all the work Dave did over the years for me ( I bought his 65 SD drag car years ago) but unfortunately the invoice doesn't have the spring # on it. Dave lost his data in the first mudslide that he had in '09.

I have the Ultradyne 288/296 solid cam in it, Dave said if the installed height is 1.8750+/- they should have been the Crane 99893 springs, which are the same as the Howard 98445s. The installed height seems to be what mine are, will double check as I meant to check the shim thickness too for refrence. When I pulled one of the existing springs off the head I set it next to one of the new ones and the free height is shorter and it has an inner damper as opposed to an inner spring like the Howard's.

I don't have an actual way to test the old springs anymore, I could buy an on head tester, which I should probably have...I'm just wondering if anyone thinks the new ones are good to swap on or if I should do something else.

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Old 07-09-2022, 06:43 AM
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Before we go any further might you confirm something?

I would like to know the overall length of the valves in your 670 heads because a installed height of 1.8750” is long and strange to me even if RA4 length valves where being run!

Maybe others can chime in?

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Old 07-09-2022, 09:53 AM
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This is not your specific set up but Dave has stated the Crane 99893 spring set up for his Old Faithfull hyd roller cam were typically at 1.800"-1.820". And stated at 1.800" they were about 145-150 lbs on the seat.

He stated he actually rates the spring for small solid roller use as well with a 1.750" installed height. At the 1.750" he said they were 165 lbs on the seat. Note he stated "small" solid roller cam.

Looking at my Crane Cams spring chart for the 99893 it indicates at 1.850" they rate it at 130 lbs and at 1.900" it is rated at 112 lbs.

And Dave always maintained these springs lose pressure after run in and with use.

.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
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Old 07-09-2022, 11:01 AM
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How much lift is your Ud cam at the valve?

Seeing as your springs are now broken in you might just be able to shim them to get back to the needed 135 to 145 range instead of going through a whole break in and re-shim session again as would be needed from going with new springs.

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Old 07-09-2022, 11:15 AM
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0.3600" lobe lift on the intake and 0.3706" on the exhaust.

This presumes it's the same cam as listed here:

http://web.archive.org/web/200303250..._camshafts.htm

Cam card probably suggests .024" lash

.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
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Old 07-09-2022, 12:03 PM
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Thanks!
Well the only other info we need from the OP is his rocker ratio.

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Old 07-09-2022, 12:30 PM
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Not to steal the OP post, but same topic. What would you guys recommend for a spring to replace the Crane 99893 springs? I like the PSI springs. https://www.psisprings.com/products/1200-series/
Would the CT1225 be close to a match? Thanks

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Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft.
76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend,
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Old 07-09-2022, 12:45 PM
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At what installed height for the CT1225 ? It's rated at 1.950". And the net valve lift involved ? The spring rates are almost identical.

Here, enter the actual installed height and lift to determine the revised spring pressure:

https://www.psisprings.com/calculate/


.

__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE

Last edited by Steve C.; 07-09-2022 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 07-09-2022, 04:52 PM
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They are Ferrea valves, I'll have to look in my packet for the length.

Lift is .594/.612 with 1.65 rockers.

I'm thinking of buying an on head tester and just checking them, I'm not getting valve float, they just sat so long without the rockers backed off that I figured I should just swap them in case a few were weak. At the end of the day I may be switching these heads this winter so maybe this is all futile now and check them with the heads off.

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1967 GTO 416 5-spd streetcar 11's on HP low 10's 150 shot
1965 GTO 10-71 Littlefield high-helix retro/Bird (untuned) 8.44 @159 3500+lbs 10.5W's SOLD!
1964 421 GP-Sold
6.0 cert. Fiat bodied altered blown alcohol Pontiac IAII-Sold
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Old 07-09-2022, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
0.3600" lobe lift on the intake and 0.3706" on the exhaust.

This presumes it's the same cam as listed here:

http://web.archive.org/web/200303250..._camshafts.htm

Cam card probably suggests .024" lash

.

Yes, same cam. Hot lash .026"

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1967 GTO 416 5-spd streetcar 11's on HP low 10's 150 shot
1965 GTO 10-71 Littlefield high-helix retro/Bird (untuned) 8.44 @159 3500+lbs 10.5W's SOLD!
1964 421 GP-Sold
6.0 cert. Fiat bodied altered blown alcohol Pontiac IAII-Sold
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Old 07-09-2022, 07:12 PM
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Installed height is coming in about 1.800" so I'm still not sure if I should use these springs or not. I haven't been able to find a good chart to reference for this cam and recommended pressure/height. Does anyone have something? I'm sure these will work but I'd like to know for sure first.

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1967 GTO 416 5-spd streetcar 11's on HP low 10's 150 shot
1965 GTO 10-71 Littlefield high-helix retro/Bird (untuned) 8.44 @159 3500+lbs 10.5W's SOLD!
1964 421 GP-Sold
6.0 cert. Fiat bodied altered blown alcohol Pontiac IAII-Sold
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Old 07-09-2022, 07:45 PM
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My E heads Dave CNC'd and put the 99893 springs were a little "soft" at 1.800 to get 140 I had to go 1.740-1.760.

I ran an UD 288/292 SFT on my RAIV heads and had some UD springs on it but can't find the specs.

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Old 07-10-2022, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
At what installed height for the CT1225 ? It's rated at 1.950". And the net valve lift involved ? The spring rates are almost identical.

Here, enter the actual installed height and lift to determine the revised spring pressure:

https://www.psisprings.com/calculate/


.

Thanks Steve: My cam is the Road paver. 246/252. with 1.5 rockers. Has .600 lift. I can't find my installed height card at the moment. Thanks for the link. I did see that. I'm running the cam with solid rollers.

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68 Firebird. IA2 block, 505 cu in, E-head, Solid roller 3650 weight. Reid TH400 4:11 gear. 29" slick.
Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft.
76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend,
468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh.
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Old 07-10-2022, 02:08 PM
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Charles,
Are these your 300-305 cfm CNC KRE heads Dave did for you ? If so, his remarks indicated when he used the Crane 99893 spring on those they were typically set up at 1.780-1.790 intake and 1.810-1.815 on the exhaust. I believe at one time you reported 1.785", and I presume that was on the intake.

Your Edelbrock heads are a much different story !

Dave's "Road Paver" is rated with 0.4000" lobe lift. Are you are still using your 1.52 rockers and I presume about .006" lash with the solid roller lifters? If so, some might suggest a spring that provided a minimum of 150 on the seat, and that's after run in and use. If it were me I'd set them up higher and expect at least 180 on the seat after run in with the solid roller lifters. And I watch the distance from coil bind, not go over .100". That's what PSI tech recommends regarding the coil bind distance with their springs.

.


.

__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE

Last edited by Steve C.; 07-10-2022 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 07-10-2022, 02:42 PM
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A tid bit that might be of interest... Dean Harvey, one of the best Cam engineers in the business ! We used to work with him years ago. So did Tom Schlauch, and as Tom has pointed out many times Dean would call for 200 on the seat when using solid roller lifters with some hydraulic roller lobes. I believe Dean is consulting with NASCAR now for Comp, unless he has retired like so many of the great designers at Comp from years ago.

COMP Cams Employee Spotlight: Dean Harvey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vge6pWG4H9c


.

__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Steve C. For This Useful Post:
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Old 07-10-2022, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
Charles,
Are these your 300-305 cfm CNC KRE heads Dave did for you ? If so, his remarks indicated when he used the Crane 99893 spring on those they were typically set up at 1.780-1.790 intake and 1.810-1.815 on the exhaust. I believe at one time you reported 1.785", and I presume that was on the intake.

Your Edelbrock heads are a much different story !

Dave's "Road Paver" is rated with 0.4000" lobe lift. Are you are still using your 1.52 rockers and I presume about .006" lash with the solid roller lifters? If so, some might suggest a spring that provided a minimum of 150 on the seat, and that's after run in and use. If it were me I'd set them up higher and expect at least 180 on the seat after run in with the solid roller lifters. And I watch the distance from coil bind, not go over .100". That's what PSI tech recommends regarding the coil bind distance with their springs.

.


.

Thanks for the info. Yes there around 290/300 cfm as I can remember. Still using the Crower 1.5 stainless rockers. I can't remember the numbers from before. Might have been the wife's car at the time.

Need to find my head sheet from Dave.

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68 Firebird. IA2 block, 505 cu in, E-head, Solid roller 3650 weight. Reid TH400 4:11 gear. 29" slick.
Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft.
76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend,
468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh.
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Old 07-11-2022, 07:54 PM
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I got the first set of Eddy RP heads with the heart shaped chambers CNC ported from Dave, I waited 1.5 years. They have tool steel retainers with his small spring package, they are works of art and flow 338 cfm.
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1967 Firechicken, 499", Edl heads, 262/266@0.050" duration and 0.627"/0.643 lift SR cam, 3.90 gear, 28" tire, 3550#. 10.01@134.3 mph with a 1.45 60'. Still WAY under the rollbar rule.
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Old 07-11-2022, 11:07 PM
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Wow, Yes they do look very nice. I wonder what springs Dave is using now on these?

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68 Firebird. IA2 block, 505 cu in, E-head, Solid roller 3650 weight. Reid TH400 4:11 gear. 29" slick.
Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft.
76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend,
468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh.
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Old 07-12-2022, 05:30 AM
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They came with CC 206XX, can't remember the exact number. They are about 1.3" diameter with 150# seat pressure for a HR cam.

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1967 Firechicken, 499", Edl heads, 262/266@0.050" duration and 0.627"/0.643 lift SR cam, 3.90 gear, 28" tire, 3550#. 10.01@134.3 mph with a 1.45 60'. Still WAY under the rollbar rule.
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Old 07-12-2022, 06:33 AM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Dave has used the Comp 26925 valve spring before with hyd roller cams.

It is rated with 141 lbs at 1.810" installed height
1.320" dia
400 rate
Comp spring chart suggests 145 at 1.800"
I have seen it listed with both 1.070" and 1.100" coil bind depending on the catalog



.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
The Following User Says Thank You to Steve C. For This Useful Post:
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