[gtofreek]

Voodoo's and XE's are NOT the same. Not even close. These Voodoo's make great power for a long time ground on a 110° LSA.

One long stroked engine we built[4.100" stroke] with a Voodoo cam peaked at 721 HP at 6700, but still made over 700 HP at 7800 RPM ground on a 110° LSA. That is carrying the power out for a long ways. That same engine made over 600 Ft. Lbs. from 4800-5800 RPM's. it was only 439 CID. Nothing special either. Just mildly ported E-heads.

[ponyakr]

"Using this and my info I get 9.46CR."


I was guessing at some of your specs. You posted 4.25 stroke. You said it is .060 over, so that is 4.180 bore. But, I see that the Mahle pistons in the Butler assembly are actually 4.185 bore.

Some head charts show the 6x-4 heads @ 91cc--some at around 94cc. So, you've cleared that up--they're 94cc.

I have no idea what the valve relief volume is on the Mahle pistons. The SP 4-relief pistons are shown to have 6.7cc reliefs. Icon 4.25 stroker pistons show 4.3cc reliefs. Probe 4.25's show 5.5cc reliefs. So, I used the middle value of 5.5cc, to plug into the calculator. So, what size reliefs do the Mahle pistons have ?

I used the specs for the better #1016 Fel-Pro head gaskets, which is .039 x 4.3.

And I used zero for the deck height, since that is what most recommend.

I just used these numbers and the calculator says 9.81 CR. If the valve reliefs are smaller than 5.5cc, the number will be slightly higher.

Hey, I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the 1st time.

Just found that the Mahle pistons have 6cc reliefs. Eagle #52410

http://www.eaglerod.com/index.php?op...d=33&Itemid=40

http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/eagle...p-pistons.html

[Steve C.]

Varify the actual spring pressure at their actual installed height used on the heads with their retainers in place. DON"T assume they are correct out of the box ! Is it 113 lbs or less ? Depending on the end use you may need to upgrade the springs for a Voodoo lobe. Unless he comments here, contact Paul Carter on that subject.

Also as mentioned before, you can always order a Voodoo lobe with any lobe separation desired if necessary. This is not a recommendation... but you do not have to use a 110 lobe separation listed for a specific lobe, example it can be ground with a wider 112 LS.
Also just because it's not listed in a 'Pontiac section' of a catalog it doesn't mean other lobes are not available. For example lobes listed under a small block Chevy can be picked and custom ground using a cam core with a Pontiac journal diameter.


.

[Cliff R]

"I get tired of these cam threads as everyone seems to think old school on them. With newer cam designs, you can throw out that old school thinking.

Many here bash these cams because they look at the cam card specs and create an opinion strictly off that. They have never used them to create a REAL opinion."

Paul, let me clear up a few things on my "old school thinking".

Right to start with I didn't "bash" anything, just stated facts about this particular engine build. We've done a lot of them here, so not guessing about any of the results from the end product.

You are correct that the Lunati cams are not going to experience "lifter crash" like the Comp XE lobes and go dead at high rpms with "normal" weight valve train components. So pound for pound they will fair better in these engines.

As for tight 110LSA's working or not in the 455 builds, they will NOT make nearly the power or enjoy a broad/flat torque curve if they do not have enough seat timing, LSA is really not the big player in that deal. The older Ultradyne cams, like the 231/239/110 and 239/247/110 make GREAT power in these engines, because they have a lot of off seat timing.

My comments about "tight" LSA cams not working well in 455 builds are strictly referring to the "little" cams like the 256/262/268/274 grinds. They are piss-poor choices for any 455 build at relatively high compression ratios, IMHO, even with fancy "modern" lobe profiles and asymmetrical designs.

When I talk about tight LSA not being effective in these engines, it's short seat timing cams that I'm referring to, not long duration cams.

With the 455 engine up near 10 to 1 compression, 270 something degrees seat timing is insufficient to make optimum power, and when ground on a tight LSA, you can quickly get into trouble with too much cylinder pressure and peak torque occurring too low in the rpm range. Not to mention you can leave a BUTT LOAD of power on the table, at every rpm, as we showed in the long thread we ran on here recently about cam choices in 455 engines.

From my own DIRECT experiences with this topic, and FWIW, I would put no cam in any of those engines with less than about 284 degrees seat timing, and no LSA tighter than 112.

Even with that said, once you get out past about 240 degrees @ .050" you can start pulling the LSA in and they will be fine, as the cam will be big enough to push peak torque high enough in the rpm range to manage pump fuel, and with big cams they start to make power so high in the rpm range you may need to pull it down some anyhow.

I do have DIRECT experience with Lunati cams, and have used quite a few cams from other Vendors as well, including HO Racing, Indian Adventures, Nunzi, Ultradyne, Crower, Howards, Comp Cams, Wolverine, and Melling/Speed Pro (CMC).

I'm also probably the ONLY one posting here who has back to back to back tested 3 different cams in the same engine on the same dyno, so I could see what's really going on with these things.

I'm not going to regurgitate all that "old" information, but will say this. You are going to have to really put your game face on to outrun the "old school" RAIV cam with Rhoads lifters and high ratio rockers in this particular engine build.

I put the Crower 60919 cam with high ratio rockers and Rhoads lifters up against two other cams, both were quite a bit bigger and it outran one of them by quite a margin, and ran right with the custom ground hydraulic roller cam we spec'd out for it.

The HR cam sported 284/296 @ .006", 230/242 @ .050", and had .361" lobes for a solid .070" more lift than the Crower 60919 cam with any ratio rocker we ran on it. It only bested the 60919 cam by 3hp/4ft lbs, and actually made peak tq and HP 200 rpm earlier in the rpm range.

I can tell you, and anyone else who responds here that neither one of the Lunati Vodoo cams mentioned above are going to run anywhere near our custom ground HR cam with 284/296, 230/242, 112 specs, they woln't even be close to it.

So "old school" or not, the RAIV cam is an excellent choice for one of these engine builds. If you add Edelbrock or KRE heads to the deal, you will EASILY make over 500hp and over 550tq just about everyplace. We've build both of those engines and been nicely rewarded with 505hp/551tq with the older bathtub chamber E-heads, and 502hp/569ft lbs torque with unported 85cc KRE heads.

We even take all our testing a bit further. At the track at 3740lbs race weight my old 455 went 11.64 @ 116mph with the Crower RAIV cam in it. Moving up to the custom ground HR cam it went 11.52 @ 118MPH, so there are some additional benefits from the roller design that don't show up on the dyno.

The 455 with E-heads and Crower RAIV cam was also drag strip tested. At 3900lbs race weight it pushed a street driven Firebird with DOT's to 11.50's at 118mph and was driven to the track the day it was raced......Cliff

[gtofreek]

For one, Lunati cam lobes are NOT the same as Voodoo lobes. Harold designed the Voodoo lobes, NOT the other Lunati lobes. I have been unhappy with certain other Lunati lobes, but never had a complaint about a Voodoo lobe in anything we have put them in. I have had customers bring me Comp Cams, Crane Cams, Isky cams to install in their engines. All of them, on paper, seemed like good choices for their application. They came back complaining of the performance for one reason or another. Never had a customer come back complaining about the performance of their Voodoo cam. Matter of fact, it has been quite the opposite. That's why we use so many of them, or Harold's other cam lobes in our engines. We have seen nothing outperform them.

So, I ask you Cliff, and not for arguing purposes, but, have you ever designed and built an engine around a Voodoo cam? I'm not talking about the Lunati cam that you referred to as "I cannot say DOG loud enough", as that was not a Voodoo cam.
My guess is, no you haven't.

[Cliff R]

Paul, I would suggest here that you continue to do what is good for you and your customers. It serves everyone better here if you put up results, and refrain from trying to degrade those of us that are getting it done with other methods, and "old school" ones at that.

I will do the same, and continue to put up dyno and drag strip runs when it's appropriate, to show the power from any particular engine/cylinder head/compression ratio/cam combination.

For comparison purposes, any testing less than the dyno or drag strip is useless when it comes to this topic. I just went thru all that nonsense with a local guy here who thought his custom ground Lunati cammed 350 Old's was making around 350hp and was going to push his car well into the 13's at the track. He based that on the fact that it would spin the rear tires with ease and absolutely ROAST them all the way thru first gear without much effort.

Race day cam, and with me driving the car and perfect traction the same car that was thought to be a beast was no quicker than a stone stock Dodge Neon with a plug wire pulled off of it! The best I could muster out of the car was high 9's in the 1/8th mile (the first couple of runs spinning all the way thru 1st gear were high 10's), which best case scenario would be low 15's in the 1/4 mile. So much for fancy cams and "seat of pants" evaluations of them.........Cliff

[gtofreek]

Not trying to degrade anyone Cliff, but you keep claiming these cams won't work when you have never tried them. That's all I'm saying. You give opinions on stuff you have never used. If you like your cam choices, that's fine. State your experience with them, like you do. that helps everyone. You just shouldn't degrade cams you have never used, until you have used them, and have first hand experience with them. That helps no one. You don't see me commenting on Crower cams, that's because I don't use them, and I have no experience with them. That's all I'm trying to say.

Since you didn't answer my question, I assume your answer was no.

[scott70]

I run the 60919 cam with rhoads v max and 1.65 rockers in my 455. 9.3 to 1 comp and the cam degreed in at 113.5 LSA i believe. They sent back the first cam because i believe they said that cam was degreeing in at 115+. Car has a very good pull with no detonation and idles pretty smooth with ram air manifolds and 2.5" pipes.. The only thing I dont like is the lifters are a little too noisy. At 3950 lbs,,it ran a 8.9 at 85 mph babying it out of the hole with a 2.30 60ft.The old BFg's couldnt hold with the 4 speed..Havent tried it with the new quadrajet from cliff.Overall Im happy with that cam but Im sure theyre are other cams that will run equally well. Also had very good luck with UD 231-239 HFT,,,ran mid 11's at the same weight. this is the street car section right? Probably talking your average 350-maybe 500 hp street engines? I think the OP is asking questions about cams for his engine in that range.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Ventura455

Word. Most of use guys on here know that you can make pontiacs run real well and we value your opinion, that other guy named cliff is stuck in a world of thinking 11.50 is fast. Don't waste your breath on this self proclaimed pontiac want a be engine builder. Hey 77 trashcan get Cliffs nuts out of your mouth you ball swinging moron.

Gentlemen,

You can disagree and NOT be disagreeable. As a retired engine machinst and engine builder, I respect both Cliff's and Paul's opinions. I have no problem asking both for their advice. Comments like THESE do NOT further the dialogue...

[Cliff R]

Just a member of my "fan club" making more useless comments that contribute absolutely NOTHING to the topic at hand. The name calling and personal attacks really aren't appropriate here, or on any other website for that matter......Cliff

[1967Tempest]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

"Using this and my info I get 9.46CR."


I was guessing at some of your specs. You posted 4.25 stroke. You said it is .060 over, so that is 4.180 bore. But, I see that the Mahle pistons in the Butler assembly are actually 4.185 bore.

Some head charts show the 6x-4 heads @ 91cc--some at around 94cc. So, you've cleared that up--they're 94cc.

I have no idea what the valve relief volume is on the Mahle pistons. The SP 4-relief pistons are shown to have 6.7cc reliefs. Icon 4.25 stroker pistons show 4.3cc reliefs. Probe 4.25's show 5.5cc reliefs. So, I used the middle value of 5.5cc, to plug into the calculator. So, what size reliefs do the Mahle pistons have ?

I used the specs for the better #1016 Fel-Pro head gaskets, which is .039 x 4.3.

And I used zero for the deck height, since that is what most recommend.

I just used these numbers and the calculator says 9.81 CR. If the valve reliefs are smaller than 5.5cc, the number will be slightly higher.

Hey, I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the 1st time.

Just found that the Mahle pistons have 6cc reliefs. Eagle #52410

http://www.eaglerod.com/index.php?op...d=33&Itemid=40

http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/eagle...p-pistons.html

I am planning to and purchased Fel-Pro 1016 head gaskets. With that in mind I think mine will be around ~9.7. Which is right where I would like to be. I will be running pump gas.

[Cliff R]

Keep in mind that cam choice has a much or more of an effect on the actual compression the engine makes in use than the SCR. If the cam is too small, and too good at cylinder filling early in the rpm range, you will NOT be safe at 9.7 to 1.

Might want to look up the thread I ran on 455 cam choice a while back, with dyno numbers and direct testing to back it up......Cliff


http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=775018

PS: the dyno sheet is shown is response #85

[b-man]

Originally Posted by Ventura455

Word. Most of use guys on here know that you can make pontiacs run real well and we value your opinion, that other guy named cliff is stuck in a world of thinking 11.50 is fast. Don't waste your breath on this self proclaimed pontiac want a be engine builder. Hey 77 trashcan get Cliffs nuts out of your mouth you ball swinging moron.

Personal attacks will not be tolerated here.

This post just earned this member a vacation.

Treat others with respect if you want to post here.

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by b-man

Personal attacks will not be tolerated here.

This post just earned this member a vacation.

Treat others with respect if you want to post here.

Thanks Bart! My ignore list is getting large.......

[Skip Fix]

If the UD lobes work good (in most of mine, Butler used to sell them off the shelf) Bullet can make one with what ever LS you want, why not use one? Lee here had great luck with them in his 455 1st gen also.
Heck they were the only ones that had a roller 409 core without the 4-7 swap like Comp has so it has a UD/Bullet 251/251 in that motor I have-600+ HP.

[ponyakr]

"...Bullet can make one with what ever LS you want, why not use one?..."



http://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/Hlobes.htm

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by b-man

Personal attacks will not be tolerated here.

This post just earned this member a vacation.

Treat others with respect if you want to post here.

Thanks for your vigilance, b-man.

[Skip Fix]

http://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/ultradynemasters.html

Lunati has them also, in fact the one in my pump gas motor in the 78 now was one he ground while there. But the Lunati versions they did not advance the IC as much as when they were from UD originally.

[gtofreek]

I'll say this.

Comparing Voodoo lobes to XE lobes is like comparing ice cream to horse radish sauce! There is no comparison. They may look similar on paper, but that is where the similarities stop.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by 1967Tempest

I am planning to and purchased Fel-Pro 1016 head gaskets. With that in mind I think mine will be around ~9.7. Which is right where I would like to be. I will be running pump gas.

Dave,
The plain stock blue Fel-Pro head gaskets will work fine for your deal, no need to splurge on the 1016's