[68ragtop]

I was doing some reading on the CF type R12
freon. Obviously it does damage to our enviroment & the newer 134A is only 5% as harmful.
I am trying to understand what is really working from a replacement standpoint. From what I have read, new cars with 134A work fine because they have over sized compresors & condensors to get rid of the high heat generated from a 134A system. What I am unclear on is what really replaces our older R12 A/C systems? I have heard of ES12A, & R406A. I wonder what works? I have also read that a system converted from R12 to 134A will experiance more abuse to the compressor, from higher pressures & higher heat. Also I read something about the molecules being much smaller in 134A &
that causing older hoses to start leaking.

Just currious what anyone else has learned about it. My 78 T/A still blows cold, but The 80 T/A is low charged, & now our daily driver Grand Am is leaking out. I am going to have to do something with them.

[ July 16, 2002, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: 68ragtop ]

[68ragtop]

I was doing some reading on the CF type R12
freon. Obviously it does damage to our enviroment & the newer 134A is only 5% as harmful.
I am trying to understand what is really working from a replacement standpoint. From what I have read, new cars with 134A work fine because they have over sized compresors & condensors to get rid of the high heat generated from a 134A system. What I am unclear on is what really replaces our older R12 A/C systems? I have heard of ES12A, & R406A. I wonder what works? I have also read that a system converted from R12 to 134A will experiance more abuse to the compressor, from higher pressures & higher heat. Also I read something about the molecules being much smaller in 134A &
that causing older hoses to start leaking.

Just currious what anyone else has learned about it. My 78 T/A still blows cold, but The 80 T/A is low charged, & now our daily driver Grand Am is leaking out. I am going to have to do something with them.

[ July 16, 2002, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: 68ragtop ]

[Brian Baker]

How can something that happens naturally harm the environment? Don't believe the negative hype about R12, there are/were other reasons why it was banned.

CFC's (Chloro-flourocarbons) was what got the blame for banning R12, but everytime a volcano erupts somewhere on Earth, it spews CFC's into the air. Mt. Pinnatubo in the Phillipines (back in '91) reportedly spewed more CFC's into the atmosphere than mankind could ever possibly have since the industrial revolution.

My 92 GMC uses R12, and it'll run you out of the truck idling in park. My 96 Blazer uses R134a, it doesn't get cold unless the truck is moving (sufficient airflow through the condensor). It barely blows cool while idling in park.

[boozer]

i have heard good things about freeze 12. cools great. bettern than 134a, and is like $6.00 a can here. later boozer

[Bob Dillon]

Will Freeze 12 retrofit to an R134 system? 'Cause my '99 Bonnie is definitely lame in the A/C department, compared to freon cars I've owned.

[Scott Misus]

I changed my '70 Crapalina wagon over to R134 back in '92 and didn't notice much difference. Only that the R134 took longer to reach temp.

Just replaced the compressor, receiver/dryer and condensor on my Ford truck last year. Still blows cold enough to make my arms stiff while driving.

Haven't had any negative experiences with the R134 stuff.

[Dennis B]

I converted my Freightliner over from R12 to 134A last year and it cools better than it ever did on R12. The only thing I replaced was the expansion valve. Just had them evacuate the system, and load it up with 134. Worked good for me with no problems. Cost was $250.00 including labor.

[RossGN]

I had good luck with Freeze 12 in my 86 GN....really didn't notice any difference from when it was charged with R12.

[dallas]

I've been using Enviro-Safe and its predecessor HC-12A for almost 10 years in 8 different cars. It is almost the same as Freeze 12 I think. It is a lighter gas and doesn't create near as much pressure and heat within the compressor. I get it for $4 a can. I see a distributor is running a full page ad in the latest "Old Car Trader". It is a direct replacement for R12 or R-134a, and FAR less toxic than the 134a. Make sure you read the directions carefully on these type refrigerants as the load a little differently and don't require the same pressure on the guage.

Mine have always made my systems blow really cold.

[68ragtop]

Sounds like freeze 12 might be the best way to go for me. Where can a person buy it? I wonder if I can use my same gauges to charge the system if I do find somewhere to buy it?

[Scott Misus]

Here's another thing you could try:

1. $2.50 can of camp stove fuel.

2. 16 oz. bottle of Bernzomatic propane.

Works like a charm.

['ol Pinion head]

Ck out the following board:

http://aircondition.com/

& the following article...http://www.freezonerb276.com/TheTruth.htm

[ July 17, 2002, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: ol' Pinion head ]

['ol Pinion head]

My brother just went the A/C conversion on his '91 LandCruiser. He wanted 134A & had the kit. Thought it was cheap easy swap...I argued against it in favor of Freeze 12, & since he is as hardheaded as I am, the entire system was dissassembled & swapped to 134A. Believe Western Auto stores have the Freeze12, I bought 6 cans somewhere while on the road .

134A calamity...Well the Toyota upscale "greenhouse on wheels" did not want to cool off, so the 134A & their new fittings were removed, & system was pumped down, flushed as well as possible & some expensive R12 made it's way back into the system. Finally blew COLD. My sister-in-law drove this vehicle 3 weeks, & now the A/C clutch is burned up on the compressor. Will keep everyone posted on the final bill. Also ck the FreeZone article above. FreeZone & Freeze 12 seem to have very similiar chemical properties.

Next conversion...I have an older 4.0 Cherokee to put a new dryer, seals, & Freeze 12 in next week or two. Guru ASE mechanic budy of mine emphatically stated he would not convert another 4.0 liter Cherokee over to 134A, as many of these Cherokees run hot, & a lesser efficient a/c system would compound the problem. An aftermarket double row alum radiator solved any potential cooling probs in this vehicle, but I'm still going with the Freeze12.

[ July 17, 2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: ol' Pinion head ]

[dallas]

I noticed that the report exposes a lot of R-22 blends. R-22 is for commercial building a/c units. You should NEVER use R-22 in an auto system. That report was as of 8/96, which is fairly old by today's tech standards. I had used the OZ-12 and the HC12a for years without any problems. All the "establishment" refrigerant suppliers hated them because it could be produced so cheaply. They made lots of claims about flammability and safety, but most of it was "chicken little" scare tactics. After years of battling DuPont and the EPA I think they gave up, though.

So, the Freeze 12 looks ok. Just read the directions and talk to other users. I'll stick with my Enviro-Safe until something shows me different.

[Tom]

I converted both my S-10 Blazer and the wifes Astro van to 134a and have had no problems since.Been working good for the last couple of years.Blows cold enough to freeze your arm.I have read somewhere that the 134a is able to permeate the hoses of older vehicles since it's molecules are supposed to be smaller than the other CFCs and HCFCs.

Tom

[TinInjun]

Y'all crack me up. You won't hesitate to spend thousands of dollars on performance equipment to go faster, but won't shell out 40 bucks a pound for R-12. Seeing how most of our Pontiac's use 4 pounds of R-12 that rounds up to 160 bucks. If your system is repaired properly it won't leak and should last a long time. Use R-12 in a system that was designed for R-12, you won't regret it.

[68ragtop]

The grand am we have has a slow leaking evaporator. The car has 170,000 miles on it & I just would like to get another year of two out of it. The service center told me they won't charge a r12 system if it has a leak. I was thinking of converting it, so I could just throw a few charges in it for the duration of the cars life.
Wasn't trying to be cheap, I just don't know how long the car is going to last & boy it's been hot lately

[stu]

I am able to get an R-12 charge for 49.00 at Goodyear, even though I am EPA licensed and have R-12 on hand I don't bother charging it myself. You should leak maybe 1-2 Oz a year if you don't have major leaks, if you do, fix them and run R-12 till it becomes unavailable IMO. To convert, you really need to flush the system and change the accumulator and oil charge which is a lot of work compared to dumping in R-134 and hoping for the best. FYI I stayed with R-12 even with a compressor change, and am happy with results. Don't know if R134 would get enough heat transfer given the relatively low air rates thru the evap. to be effective.
...Doh I should have read the leaky evap part, yeah I guess you are SOL on R12. Is the system losing a lot of charge in a season? If it's not too bad, the rules don't prohibit charging but they may not do it for common sense reasons.

[ July 18, 2002, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: stu ]

[68ragtop]

It's been cooling great up until a few weeks ago. Within about a two week period, it got so low, the limit switch started to prevent the compressor from even turnng on.

[72LeMConvt]

Tin, you really hit the nail on the head....

My '72 had a small leak at a hose connection. I had that repaired, replaced the dryer and had it recharged with R-12 like it was meant to have. It'll freeze you right out on a S. Fla afternoon idling in rush hour traffic!!

I've converted 2 other vehicles to 134a and had just about all the stereotypical problems - extra load on the compressor, underperforming at standstill, etc. etc.

All to save maybe a hundred fifty bucks...