[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 63Banshee

Do we know the start and stop build dates for model years at each plant?

I don't believe so.

Gunnell's catalog of Standard Pontiacs lists a start/stop date for each model year, but only one (and it's not clear which plant. I always assumed Pontiac Michigan only).

The only other way is to find period documentation like newspaper references or special notices (which we have for the introduction of the Fremont plant in 1963/1964, for example).

K

[John V.]

There is another variable also.

Sometimes a particular model series was not built at a given Plant for the entire year.

Example, I'm told the '64 F-85 was built at the Baltimore Plant for just the first 1/2 of the Model Year.

I already mentioned the '69 Firebird which terminated production at Lordstown in late March '69. Production was then shifted to Norwood, beginning about mid April '69, '69 Firebirds were not built there prior to that.

So model production sometimes was shifted around during the Model Year.

It is possible that the '63 Tempest was only built at Kansas City for part of the Model Year.

Only by collecting a lot of records can you discover some of these things unless published announcements or anecdotal evidence from people that worked at the Plants is available.

For '64, I have never seen a Data Plate on any Pontiac with an August Time Built date code from either end of the Model Year. We know that production of the '64 Models began on 9/3/63 (day after Labor Day) at the Pontiac Plant and Fremont Plant (I believe this was universal across all GM final assembly Plants but have no proof of that).

But I can only guess that '64 Model Year production ended around the last week of July '64 based on the evidence I have collected.

Fisher Body-Pontiac Plant used the 5 Group code system in '63 and regurgitated all of the Trim Manifest 5 Group codes on the Data Plate (unless human error caused a discrepancy).

This latest Data Plate shows:

2C=Possibly Instrument Panel Pad (seen on an earlier example in this thread)
2G=Accommodation for Console (same code used for '64) and this code is also on the Data Plate of the SD car that sold a couple years ago for big money
4B=No idea
4R=No idea but this code is also on the Data Plate of the SD car
5A=Possibly Sales Code 624, Front Seat Belts. This is also coded on the SD car, the SD car included Sales Code 624 and in '64, Seat Belt options were coded in Group 5, there were 2 different Seat Belt option choices at the beginning of the '64 Model Year and at mid year, only 1 choice plus a delete choice when the std. seat belts became standard content in January '64. All 3 options got a Group 5 code.

Most of the options you listed did not involve Fisher Body to the best of my knowledge.

It would be useful if you could post the Sales Codes for the options. The Manifest for the SD Tempest included Sales Codes 584, 602, 624, and 664. Curious to know what the Sales Codes identify, I believe 664 was the Tach option and would not have involved Fisher.

In '64, the Back-Up Lamps option was coded 2P. The Lamps were in a specific bumper. Fisher Body did not install the bumper or the B/U Lamps in '64. However, the most plausible reason for the Trim Manifest code 2P is that Fisher probably installed the wiring to the Lamps. The wiring facilitated the hook up of the Lamps when they were installed at final assembly.

Similarly, Fisher did not install the Console. But they apparently installed some sort of accommodation for it so that the Body Assembly was ready to receive the Console at final assembly.

Fisher was only concerned with the necessary modifications to the standard content (no options) Body Assembly that a specific build required. These modifications are what drove the 5 Group option codes.

63Banshee, I see where you previously surmised that 4R indicates a Radio. Since the SD car was also coded with 4R and was not factory equipped with a Radio option, I believe 4R must mean something else.

[63Banshee]

Yeah, I think I noted that about the SD car somewhere and found it strange.

Would PHS on the 63 KC cars help or are there decode issues like for 64s? I don't remember what you said about that.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

It would be useful if you could post the Sales Codes for the options. The Manifest for the SD Tempest included Sales Codes 584, 602, 624, and 664. Curious to know what the Sales Codes identify, I believe 664 was the Tach option and would not have involved Fisher.

Not sure I understand. Fisher would have needed to know so they could have installed the correct instrument cluster.

Stan Long SD:









Apparently it had an aftermarket Sun tach on it as well, at some point:

[Keith Seymore]

Ok - here we go:

Pontiac built '63 Lemans convert; V8 auto, originally white exterior, parchment interior, red top (now white). Remote mirror (removed), AM pushbutton radio, manual antenna, backup lamps. Power steering, power brakes, no air, two speed wipers with washers (I believe). Had some kind of weird wire/finned hubcaps on it when we got it - I never have really been able to determine if they were factory correct. "Tagged" for a Mr Connor, per the PHS.

K

[63Banshee]

R I's are nice on a white 63. They'd set off a Nocturne blue 63 too -- That was the mistakenly 4.5x5 stamped set for sale few years back?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 63Banshee

R I's are nice on a white 63. They'd set off a Nocturne blue 63 too -- That was the mistakenly 4.5x5 stamped set for sale few years back?

Thank you;

No - we converted our car to 4.75 x 5. Those are Coker repop wheels and tires, purchased as an assembled set (painted, including rings and caps).

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Ok - here we go:

Pontiac built '63 Lemans convert; V8 auto, originally white exterior, parchment interior, red top (now white). Remote mirror (removed), AM pushbutton radio, manual antenna, backup lamps. Power steering, power brakes, no air, two speed wipers with washers (I believe). Had some kind of weird wire/finned hubcaps on it when we got it - I never have really been able to determine if they were factory correct. "Tagged" for a Mr Connor, per the PHS.

I should also mention bucket seats, no console.

Dealer code 14-647 is Summer Pontiac Company in Des Moines IA. I sure didn't expect that.

K

[miragesmack67]

Originally Posted by 63Banshee

Do we know the start and stop build dates for model years at each plant?

I cannot site my source because I have spent all day on the computer researching GTO's, playing catchup and cannot recall where I saw it. But a question was asked regarding a '67 build date and another poster replied (authoritatively imo) that the 1967 build run started on August 29, 1966 and ended on July 30, 1967. That makes sense to me time wise, plus it allows a month or so for retooling. Just fyi.

[John V.]

Keith, according to the PHS doc, the ebay car was equipped with Sales Code 664, I've confirmed that as the '63 Tempest Sales Code for a Tach (same code used for the '63 big car Tach option also). Could very well have been yanked in favor of a better Sun Tach post-build.

63Banshee, PHS docs might help, not familiar with the format for them for the '63 KC, Kansas cars. It was a BOP Plant, so I suspect they will be easily decoded. The '64 KC, Missouri Plant (different Plant) was a Chevy controlled Plant, the PHS docs from them are not easily decoded.

Keith, do you have the Sales Codes for the '63 Tempest?

Your car is very heavily equipped, it includes Accessory Group options per the Manifest.

Yours is coded in the Accy Grps box as "1 2 1", so decodes as:

Group Option 061, the Basic Group option
Group Option 072, the Lower Exterior Décor Group option
Group Option 081, the Mirror Group option

The individual options comprising each Group are also coded by individual Sales Code on the Manifest except for the Décor Groups since the trim items included for them were not available individually.

386-Pushbutton AM Radio w/ Manual Antenna (Gunnell's book says it is 396 but I believe that is a typo, in '63 Pontiac coded the radio option in Box 38). Part of BG.
402-2 spd wipers. Part of BG.
421-Windshield Washers & 2 spd Wipers. Part of BG. This coding is different than in '64. In '64, code 402 and 421 were coded one or the other, not both. You either ordered 402 for 2 spd wipers w/o washers or 421 for 2 spd wipers w/ washers. In '63, looks like they coded both on the Manifest when you wanted washers and 2 spd wipers.
431-HD Air Cleaner. Part of BG.
447-Includes 441 Visor Vanity Mirror, 442 Inside Tilting Mirror, and 444 Outside Remote Control Mirror. All 3 made up the MG.
471-Back-up Lamps
503-Includes 501 Power Steering and 502 Power Brakes
532-Tinted Glass, Windshield Only
644-Have not discovered what this code was for, any idea? In '64, 644 was the HD Fan option, a special equipment option, so might have been the same for '63.

No wheel cover options appear to have been coded, would mean the car came with standard hubcaps. Might have been obvious by the Wheel Color code on the Manifest except that the car was Cameo Ivory so got Black wheels with or without full wheel covers. Unless the 644 was for a wheel cover?

5 Group Codes are as follows:

1F=Tinted Glass, Windshield Only
2M=Auto Trans, Fisher didn't install the trans or the shift linkage, but perhaps had to make some floor pan cutout provisions for the auto trans shift linkage.
4B=Most likely for the Sales Code 072 Décor Group items, in '64 all Tempest Customs (which included extra exterior trim vs. the Tempest) were coded 4G
4R=This one remains an enigma. The SD car did not include any Group options and shared no individual option codes with your Manifest. Yet both show the 4R code.

After thinking about this for awhile, it finally hit me.

I think 4R must be the code for the Lemans trim, much like 5N was used to designate the GTO trim in '64/'65.

Need to look to see if this is consistent with all others. The SD car was a Lemans right?

If the 4R shows up on all Lemans' and only Lemans' (when built at Plants that regurgitated the 5 Group codes on the Data Plate), I think that solves that mystery.

Since your car did get B/U Lamps, it does not look like there was a 5 Group code for them in '63 unless one of the other codes is decoded incorrectly.

[miragesmack67]

Alright, my turn. I am awaiting my PHS on a car I bought in 1980 and has been sitting in a garage since 1985. I am just now getting back into the swing of things. I think I have decoded my tag for the most part, but I was an option whore back in the 80's and added everything I could from my other parts cars and swap meets, so I don't recall for sure yet what I had and what I added. The car came with a power glide and Buick 265 and was used as a "farm truck". Literally, the guy just drove it around his farm with no convertible top on it.

01c-2 (3rd week of January, 1967) What is the -2?
St 67-24267 GTO Convertible
TR 224-B Parchment Interior What is the B? I assume the black dash/carpet
W2LGT W=Tinted windshield, 2L=4 speed, G=console, T=Rear power antenna
5Y Y=deluxe seats What is that? Bucket? They were gone anyway

PON 1839 Body
R-1 R= Regimental red paint I=Ivory convertible top Paint

Plus 50216 at bottom right of "Body by Fischer" tag, which I think is irrelevant


Ironically, it had a black interior which I hated in a ragtop, so I swapped to Parchment, which turns out to be what I had to start with. I was a teenager back then with few resources, lucky guess on color. I added remote mirror, ralleye gauges and an original hood tach (I know, duplication) from a parts car, tilt wheel, factory AM/FM, console vacuum gauge. That's all I recall at the moment, the car is in storage.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by miragesmack67

I cannot site my source because I have spent all day on the computer researching GTO's, playing catchup and cannot recall where I saw it. But a question was asked regarding a '67 build date and another poster replied (authoritatively imo) that the 1967 build run started on August 29, 1966 and ended on July 30, 1967. That makes sense to me time wise, plus it allows a month or so for retooling. Just fyi.

Let us know if you find your source. I'd be interested to know who this person is that speaks with such authority...



At any rate, the question posted here by 63Banshee is a little different. Not "when was the model change for the '67 model year?" - but - "is the start date for each individual plant known for each model year?".

Sadly I believe the answer is "no". As I mentioned above, Gunnells' reports one date range per model year but it is unknown which plant it is referring to (I assume the "home" plant in Pontiac Michigan). The only way the other plants could be known is if someone like me happened to keep a list each model year and still has it.

You may already know this but the product was launched in the home plant first (Pontiac Michigan, in this case) to minimize the travel time and speed problem resolution. Once the home plant was mostly underway that same launch team traveled to every other production facility (Baltimore, Arlington, Fremont, Kansas City, where ever) and got them going, too - hopefully with fewer and fewer production problems at each new site.

In the truck world, in 1985/1986, I covered Flint, Pontiac (East - the lead plant), Oshawa, St Louis (Truck), and Fort Wayne. Janesville, Arlington and Silao (all SUV plants) came along later. In the last couple years I've added Mishawaka (H2) and Detroit - Hamtramck to my punch card. Believe me, supporting only one assembly plant at a time is a luxury (and has made me soft and complacent ). I've kept my notes all these years but am selectively purging information and donating to the GM Heritage Center archives because it's just too much info for one person to maintain.

So - to answer Banshee's question specifically: there would be a staggered introduction, each plant coming up to speed successively. I do not believe documentation of those individual satellite plant dates has survived.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by miragesmack67

Alright, my turn. I am awaiting my PHS on a car I bought in 1980 and has been sitting in a garage since 1985. I am just now getting back into the swing of things. I think I have decoded my tag for the most part, but I was an option whore back in the 80's and added everything I could from my other parts cars and swap meets, so I don't recall for sure yet what I had and what I added. The car came with a power glide and Buick 265 and was used as a "farm truck". Literally, the guy just drove it around his farm with no convertible top on it.

LOL - nice. Let me be the first to welcome you to the '61-'63 Tempest forum.

Originally Posted by miragesmack67

01c-2 (3rd week of January, 1967) What is the -2?

Any digits or alpha characters that follow the date code are unknown at this time

Originally Posted by miragesmack67

St 67-24267 GTO Convertible
TR 224-B Parchment Interior What is the B?

B = Bucket seats

Originally Posted by miragesmack67

5Y Y=deluxe seats What is that? Bucket? They were gone anyway

'67 GTOs had an available reclining bucket seat. Without checking I assume that's what this code means

Originally Posted by miragesmack67

Plus 50216 at bottom right of "Body by Fischer" tag, which I think is irrelevant

Some of the plants recorded the general assembly build sequence number at the lower right of the tag. Pontiac Michigan did not do that, so I'm guessing your car was not built in Pontiac. Fremont did record that but used the more modern UPC/RPO codes that we still use today, not the "5 Group" notation that you show, so I'm guessing your car was not built in Fremont.

Baltimore, perhaps?

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

Your car is very heavily equipped, it includes Accessory Group options per the Manifest.

I've seen an identical car to mine used in marketing and promotional materials so I wondered if this Mr Connor was a Marketing/Advertising guy.

I asked around but no one had heard of him. The idea that my car was used in the print materials would be total speculation on my part at this point.

K

[miragesmack67]

Oh wow, sorry about the forum snafu, I was so excited when I aw a thread with the title of my current obsession. I thought it was heavy on the early stuff. I would delete it but you quoted me already. Carry On, and thanks for the insight.

"Some of the plants recorded the general assembly build sequence number at the lower right of the tag. Pontiac Michigan did not do that, so I'm guessing your car was not built in Pontiac. Fremont did record that but used the more modern UPC/RPO codes that we still use today, not the "5 Group" notation that you show, so I'm guessing your car was not built in Fremont."

Oh, it is a Pontiac car, fwiw.

[John V.]

A tedious search for the Production Dates on the PHS docs for the 1st & last VIN at each Assembly Plant might yield some answers. Not something I plan to be doing any time soon!

Keith, per a News Release from GM dated March 15, 1964 (beware the Ides of March!), a bunch of Key Dates were listed for Fremont. I think this News Release was part of the promotional package that was put together about the Fremont Plant.

As you know it was a brand new plant, began building trucks the previous May.

The Key Date for "Regular car production began" was Sept. 3, 1963.

It also lists "Pilot production of passenger cars began" on July 29, 1963.

Pete McCarthy listed the Production Began Date for each Model Year thru 1966 in his book.

Same as you, I believe these were specific to the Pontiac Plant. But I suspect that the production start date was more universal back in those days across GM.

Since Fremont started on the same date as the Pontiac Plant for the '64 Model Year, I think it is likely that regular car production was started on the same date at all operating plants.

Pilot production was where there may have been variability, but I think it is most likely that regular production of saleable cars started on the same date for all plants.

Dealers were allowed to sell cars consistently about 1 month after the first production date. I also think this was consistent throughout GM.

Reason being, Buick Dealers would not have been happy if the Pontiac guys got the jump on selling new cars before they could. So I figure the dates were same for all GM.

Fremont did also build the Chevelles but since it was a BOP Assembly Div. operated Plant, I gotta think they were building the new BOP A bodies starting Sept 3 same as at Pontiac.

Not sure about Baltimore and Kansas City as Chevy Div. operated Plants but don't really see a reason why they also weren't ready to final assemble BOP intermediates starting Sept 3 as well.

As far as getting the plants up to speed, line speeds were slow on the first days so that the line workers got familiar with the job. But most of the kinks should have been worked out during pilot production which as I understand it, took place with most of the line workers idled.

You may be right about a staggered start. But since Model Year production ended at the same time at all Plants from what I have seen for '64, a staggered start would also mean a protracted changeover shutdown at the satellite Plants. I don't think that would have been good for the morale of line workers idled for a longer stretch. Just another reason why I think all final plant line workers would have been called back on the same start of regular production date at every plant not just the home plants.

Start date for '63 was also day after Labor Day, 9/4/62.

The '64 Fremont start of pilot production ties well to what I have long thought was the likely end of production for '64. If pilot production for '64 began Monday 7/29/63, I'm guessing pilot production for '65 began Monday 8/3/64, which explains why I've never seen a '64 with an August Time Built code at the start or end of production.

miragesmack67, since codes changed every year, would make more sense to pursue your decodes in the '67 GTO forum.

Just a couple things, 11C-2, the 2 is something Keith has studied for '65 A bodies built at the Pontiac Plant. Some were coded "X", others with a range of nos. I think 1 thru 4 or 5 maybe have been seen, but no meaning has been established.

224-B, the B was used by some Plants as a seat configuration code, Bucket Seats in your example.

5Y decodes as Custom Seat Belts.

50216 I believe is a Gate No. code used by the Pontiac Plant. I studied these for '68 years ago but except that particular Gate Nos. were assigned for particular Model Series/Body Style combinations, not much was learned.

[John V.]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I've seen an identical car to mine used in marketing and promotional materials so I wondered if this Mr Connor was a Marketing/Advertising guy.

I asked around but no one had heard of him. The idea that my car was used in the print materials would be total speculation on my part at this point.

K

Keith, the Company Cars that I've run across were always loaded, usually convertibles. These are especially apparent from PHS docs for '68 & '69 where it was clear from the paperwork that they were Co. Cars.

My guess is that Mr. Conner was a Zone employee working out of the Omaha Zone Office, probably living in Des Moines and covering Dealers in that part of Iowa, hence the car delivered thru that particular Dealer. Pretty sure the kind of (value of) car he was allowed to order was based on his status in the pecking order.

If he was higher up the food chain, you can bet he would have ordered a loaded Bonneville convertible! Probably like the one his boss drove.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by miragesmack67

Oh, it is a Pontiac car, fwiw.

Dang it.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

50216 I believe is a Gate No. code used by the Pontiac Plant. I studied these for '68 years ago but except that particular Gate Nos. were assigned for particular Model Series/Body Style combinations, not much was learned.

Could be, but that would be a decidedly different format than what was used previously.

Originally Posted by John V.

My guess is that Mr. Conner was a Zone employee working out of the Omaha Zone Office, probably living in Des Moines and covering Dealers in that part of Iowa, hence the car delivered thru that particular Dealer. Pretty sure the kind of (value of) car he was allowed to order was based on his status in the pecking order.

If he was higher up the food chain, you can bet he would have ordered a loaded Bonneville convertible! Probably like the one his boss drove.

LOL! I'd buy that....

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I covered Flint, Pontiac (East - the lead plant), Oshawa, St Louis (Truck), and Fort Wayne. Janesville, Arlington and Silao (all SUV plants) came along later. In the last couple years I've added Mishawaka (H2) and Detroit - Hamtramck to my punch card.

Duh! And Wentzville, MO (full size vans). How could I forget that I spent a good portion of my summer in sunny Wentzville?

K

[63Banshee]

'61 Wagon (Christened "Mojave")
Body: BC (Southgate, CA)
Trim: 298 (Gray vinyl)
Paint: MM (Bamboo Cream)
ACC: CM

Just got this car in. The only obvious option is an auto trans. Even has a standard steering wheel. Anyone know for sure what the CM code is? Anyone have pictures of '61 298 interior?