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67Goatboy · 12-09-2003, 07:56 PM

I am fairly set on going EFI with my 67 GTO. I was initially excited when Edelbrock set its release for its EFI system however after emailed the rep, at a list price of 2600 for a TBI system, I am looking at Holley's 950 Commander system which can be had at 1300 dollars. Are there any other alternatives I should be looking at or any MPFI systems out there? I know this has been mulled over before...

67Goatboy · 12-09-2003, 07:56 PM

I am fairly set on going EFI with my 67 GTO. I was initially excited when Edelbrock set its release for its EFI system however after emailed the rep, at a list price of 2600 for a TBI system, I am looking at Holley's 950 Commander system which can be had at 1300 dollars. Are there any other alternatives I should be looking at or any MPFI systems out there? I know this has been mulled over before...

455Turbo · 12-10-2003, 05:48 AM

EFI is cool but expensive. I have almost $6K in the fuel injection for my twin turbo 455.

IMHO I'd only recommend a multipoint fuel injection system, I'd stay away from any form of throttle body injection.

I will also add that getting the fuel injeciton dialed in is a lot of work. Plan on spending at least 4 hours on a chassis dyno to get things running right.

As for cheap alternatives, the Holley and Edelbrock systems are likely to be the least expensive things out there.

Craig Hendrickson · 12-10-2003, 05:57 AM

455Turbo's hard numbers are right on target from a guy who's just been there and done that very well.

The owner and head guru at the machine shop that does work for me in Las Vegas is somewhat of an EFI expert. He estimates $3,500 to $4,500 for a decent one based on a commerical product. The $1,300 Holley Pro-Jection is junk, he says. He hasn't seen the Edelbrock EFI. I only saw it at SEMA, so it's TBD.

If you want to play with the big dogs, you have to bring your wallet. For the guys to don't have the scratch for EFI, I will be testing blow thru of the AFB-type, in addition to the existing QJet design.

Craig Hendrickson, the "H" in H-O Racing Specialties. Now reviving the TurboFORCE kit. http://www.wallaceracing.com/TurboForce.html

Motornoggin · 12-10-2003, 08:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by OriginalHO:
... The $1,300 Holley Pro-Jection is junk ...

Craig Hendrickson, the "H" in H-O Racing Specialties. Now reviving the TurboFORCE kit. http://www.wallaceracing.com/TurboFo...></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to agree about the Pro-Jection units. However, I think the above post is refering to the Holley Commander 950 system. While you can get the computer, harness, injectors etc... for around $1300, it will require more hardware to install it and make it function. I must say that it works very well. Fairly easy to tune and can be used on a wide range of engine combinations with either TBI or Multi Point. I use it on a 200" four cylinder (63' vintage) with a TBI and it seems to work fine, even with a huge solid roller cam. The Commander 950 is one of the better bargains in EFI. I'll probably use another one on my supercharged 428 when I build it.

Never trust a fart. They sometimes suprise you.
http://community.webshots.com/user/motornoggin

Craig Hendrickson · 12-10-2003, 08:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I tend to agree about the Pro-Jection units. However, I think the above post is refering to the Holley Commander 950 system. While you can get the computer, harness, injectors etc... for around $1300, it will require more hardware to install it and make it function. I must say that it works very well.(snip)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I appreciate the feedback. The whole aftermarket EFI deal is one fog right now because of the word of mouth and an individual's experience.

On the road/track is an entirely different matter, to say the least.

Craig Hendrickson, the "H" in H-O Racing Specialties. Now reviving the TurboFORCE kit. http://www.wallaceracing.com/TurboForce.html

Motornoggin · 12-10-2003, 08:49 PM

Craig,

I agree that the current EFI scene is a bit unclear. It sure is nice to have all the choices though! I have experience with the Holley system as well as the Electromotive TECII (quite a few years ago). The Electromotive was closer out of the box, but was MUCH more difficult to tune, in fact, I never got it to run really well, just o.k. (Ford 2.3 Turbo).
Might be worth a try with one of your TurboForce systems.

Never trust a fart. They sometimes suprise you.
http://community.webshots.com/user/motornoggin

Craig Hendrickson · 12-10-2003, 08:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Motornoggin:
Craig,

I agree that the current EFI scene is a bit unclear. It sure is nice to have all the choices though!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

email me at wcraigh@air-internet.com

Craig Hendrickson, the "H" in H-O Racing Specialties. Now reviving the TurboFORCE kit. http://www.wallaceracing.com/TurboForce.html

Marty Phipps · 12-10-2003, 09:01 PM

I will hopefully be installing the Holley Projection on my bird in another month or so.
So far the worst part was welding the "bungs" into my Torker intake(I suck at aluminum welding)
From my understanding, the $1,300.00 price for the Comander system doesn't include the injectors.

Of course. I got lucky..........
The kit I have, with injectors was given to me.
(all brand new, still in the box)
So I can afford to spend the time "tweaking" to get it right.
So hopefully I'll be able to give my personal feedback on the Holley system shortly.

PonchoV8 · 12-10-2003, 09:10 PM

TECII will datalog. Does the Comander series, too? Not sure why you couldn't tune with the TEC even not going the dyno route since it has datalogging.

I'd have to have one with multi-point or I wouldn't bother doing it.

Doug

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[This message was edited by PonchoV8]

www.geocities.com/yqtnxnb

Motornoggin · 12-10-2003, 09:18 PM

Marty,

Now I'm not sure if the $1300 system come with injectors or not? I paid $750-$800 for my system, but only ordered the ECU, harness, sensors and software. I thought the more expensive one came with injectors too, hmmm... I had the fuel pump, and a friend gave me a TBI for free (I did have to upgrade the injectors and pod).

Never trust a fart. They sometimes suprise you.
http://community.webshots.com/user/motornoggin

Motornoggin · 12-10-2003, 09:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by PonchoV8:
TECII will datalog. Does the Comander series, too? Not sure why you couldn't tune with the TEC even not going the dyno route since it has datalogging.

I'd have to have one with multi-point or I wouldn't bother doing it.

Doug
http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...a&ul=330607354
-----------------------------
[This message was edited by PonchoV8]

The Holley does have data logging.
I never put the Ford on a dyno, just messed around with it. I was only 17-18 at the time and had no patience. It was also one of their first systems, I think I was the second person to buy a software license form them (at the time, if you wanted to tune it yourself, you had to buy the software license seperatley.)

http://www.geocities.com/yqtnxnb<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never trust a fart. They sometimes suprise you.
http://community.webshots.com/user/motornoggin

Skip Fix · 12-11-2003, 11:02 AM

Ther's a guy on the thirdgen.org board working on a self tune for the Commander 950. They have an upgrade to take a wideband currently.

67Goatboy · 12-11-2003, 05:48 PM

Well that's a lot of good wisdom from everybody with experience, I was under the impression that the TBI systems were almost as good as MPFI, just a little bit easier to install and tune. I was considering the Commander, but there is no way to get it to fit onto a Pontiac short of custom intakes, right???

Motornoggin · 12-11-2003, 07:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by New Kid:
Well that's a lot of good wisdom from everybody with experience, I was under the impression that the TBI systems were almost as good as MPFI, just a little bit easier to install and tune. I was considering the Commander, but there is no way to get it to fit onto a Pontiac short of custom intakes, right???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be true of all EFI systems for Pontiac, excepting the new Edelbrock (Not released yet?). Anyway, you can get an Edelbrock Victor intake with injector bungs from Edelbrock, or customized from folks on this board. Maybe I'm just stupid, but I have not had too much trouble with TBI injection. It is easier, but you do trade the ease for ultimate power and fuel distribution, but they work pretty good.
Also, keep in mind that the Commander 950 is COMPETELY different than the Pro-Jection, they are not the same thing. The Pro-Jection was a good idea that was not executed very well. The Commander 950 is full featured fully programable engine management system that works as well or better than advertised.

Never trust a fart. They sometimes suprise you.
http://community.webshots.com/user/motornoggin

Tom Vaught · 12-11-2003, 09:19 PM

It is my understanding that Holley had a little help on the Commander 950 system from John Meany
(The guy who came up with the Digital Fuel Injection systems and the Fel-Pro system that most
of the average racers are using.

I realize that a Motec is a better system but the
Fel-Pro (now FAST) system is still a great system and has data logging, wide band O2 etc.

Craig, if you go AFB on some of your systems you
going to use Carter OEM carbs or the Edelbrock
clone stuff? (Jon Hargrove does not care for the
clone stuff but likes the Carter stuff).

He told me one time he got some Carter stuff to work at over 20 psi boost pressures!

Tom V.

Z Code 400 · 12-13-2003, 08:20 PM

I can't comment on Pontiacs with EFI, but I can on BMW and Porsche.

The shop I work for has taken a number of the BMW 'M' 4-Valve Six-Cylinders and converted them to Weber carburetors.

The difference in power output is unreal. The EFI doesn't even come close.

There is a reduction in smoothness at part throttle and the engine is obviously more tempermental when cold, but HP and TQ are higher than even the motors with upgraded throttle bodies, injectors and ECU upgrades.

Years ago, I also recall the Rochester Fuel Injected Corvette (375 HP) produced much less HP and TQ on the dyno than the carbureted (365 HP) version of the venerable 327.

Obviously, EFI is all-around the best choice for driveability and economy, but I see some serious limits to its airflow potential in most applications.

Additionally, when speaking of EFI on a Pontiac, most systems I have seen will not allow use of stock A/C.

Why not just adapt the Tune Port Assembly from a SBC for use on the Pontiac? The port arrangement is similar and I am sure the angularity of the cylinder deck could be compensated for with a properly fabricated intake manifold.

I personally, would like to see a 4V TBI Unit that would bolt on in place of the stock Q-Jet and allow use of stock A/C and Alternator Brackets.

Just curious...Robert

"If I had better junk in my garage, I know I could go faster."

Skip Fix · 12-14-2003, 07:13 AM

An intake base that would use the long runners of the Chevy TPI would reealy make a torquey Pontiac. It could take the larger aftermarket runners too. My Chevy buddies though found the stock runners on a 350 have to be shifted around 5000 for the best results due to the airflow and runner length where the power falls off. Still mid 12s with just a mild increased cam.Scoggins has come out with a base for the Vortec heads, maybe a Pontiac base!

Hawk397 · 12-14-2003, 08:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by 455Turbo:
EFI is cool but expensive. I have almost $6K in the fuel injection for my twin turbo 455.

IMHO I'd only recommend a multipoint fuel injection system, I'd stay away from any form of throttle body injection.

I will also add that getting the fuel injeciton dialed in is a lot of work. Plan on spending at least 4 hours on a chassis dyno to get things running right.

As for cheap alternatives, the Holley and Edelbrock systems are likely to be the least expensive things out there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1974 White Super Duty Trans Am
-----------------------------
1999 Red TA FireHawk #397
2002 Best: 11.68@116 NA (10.7@127 on the Juice!)

Craig Hendrickson · 12-14-2003, 08:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Vaught:
(snip)
Craig, if you go AFB on some of your systems you
going to use Carter OEM carbs or the Edelbrock
clone stuff? (Jon Hargrove does not care for the
clone stuff but likes the Carter stuff).

He told me one time he got some Carter stuff to work at over 20 psi boost pressures!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

20psi? That's impressive! I was definitely planning an AFB-type varient. The two slickest things about the old TurboFORCE setup was that 1) it fit with everything (A/C, etc, ex HD Alt) and 2) the aerodynamics of the air pressure bonnet were superior to anything else out there that time, maybe even now.

There were 3 features of that bonnet design which resulted in superior performance. 1) the wedge-shaped "diffuser" inlet which smoothly expanded the pressurized air; 2) the "umbrella" shape underneath which mimic'd the HP air cleaner base shape and allowed the air to smoothly flow up and into the carb air horn; and 3) a small vertical vane over the air horn which killed the remaining "spin" in the air resulting in a uniform air pressure over the entire air horn.

It'll be interesting to find out how that design approach works with the AFB-type and EFI.

Craig Hendrickson, the "H" in H-O Racing Specialties. Now reviving the TurboFORCE kit. http://www.wallaceracing.com/TurboForce.html

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