#21  
Old 02-05-2023, 01:55 PM
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I'm gonna say it's "possible" that you could add a GM MAP sensor and be able to output the signal to the vaporworx. Trying to run fixed (closed loop) fuel pressure without at least 2 inputs, preferably rail pressure and MAP, is challenging to keep rock steady (and correct)pressure. If I could find a fuel pump controller that would handle the amp draw and had high enough frequency I'd be using closed loop returnless myself. So I hope you get this sorted and will share the solution.
ETA: it may be possible to "share" the signal from the current MAP sensor. I'd check with the Holley experts on this. I believe some of the aftermarket transmission controllers expect signal sharing. So it is done. i.e. tps signals, and map signals.

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Last edited by Scott65; 02-05-2023 at 02:42 PM.
  #22  
Old 02-05-2023, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
... I also deadhead the Sniper Stealth units as that is how they are advertised to install so you can keep a "stealth" single fuel line coming up to the Sniper. I simply have my regulator hidden low behind the engine with a return line from there, keeping a stock appearance up top...
I missed where Holley instructions show to deadhead the Snipers/Stealth?

https://documents.holley.com/199r11971.pdf

Instructions and pic clearly show a bypass regulator.

Regular Sniper instructions:

https://documents.holley.com/199r11031r.pdf

Internal bypass regulator is used, return line comes directly from the throttlebody.

Many have had issues with the internal regulator, and the common corrective action is to install an external bypass regulator.

The psi issue has been addressed in numerous posts on the Holley EFI forums.

Just to say, in other non-holley installations, and in general, it is not recommended to run 2 dampers in series.



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  #23  
Old 02-05-2023, 06:30 PM
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I have your exact set up. From others too I know running the ZL1 pump and Vaporworx kit, you are NOT to run hard fuel line with it. Just going to ptfe rubber hose is all you need to do to cure your issues. And do not use an inline fuel filter either. The pump's filter is more than sufficient.

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Old 02-05-2023, 06:41 PM
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I'm not familiar with VaporWorx PWM pump controllers, but they generally vary voltage to the pump. Caution needs to be used when selecting a pump, and you need to understand the pump's operating voltage range.

You may need to adjust the pump voltage range within the VaporWorx controller to match the pump in use. If it is not adjustable, it needs to be within spec that VaporWorx recommends.

If voltage drops below X, and is outside of the low range of the pump, the pump just stops pumping. The sensor/transducer signals the controller psi has dropped out of range, and immediately increases voltage. If the voltage range is out of spec for the pump, it can cause an on-off-on-off rollercoaster.

Sensor/transducer also needs to be able to respond within a spec for the controller, and not have an error range outside of recommended for the controller.

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  #25  
Old 02-05-2023, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65madgoat View Post
I have your exact set up. From others too I know running the ZL1 pump and Vaporworx kit, you are NOT to run hard fuel line with it. Just going to ptfe rubber hose is all you need to do to cure your issues. And do not use an inline fuel filter either. The pump's filter is more than sufficient.
My understanding is that he is running ptfe hose.

PTFE hose has very limited to no variation in inside diameter under psi, so can't understand how using it would help over hard line.


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  #26  
Old 02-05-2023, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Gator67 View Post
Re-did the lines, replaced the fp gauge, moved the inline pulse damper closer to the throttle body, added a direct mount pulse damper to one of the unused ports. System pressurizes to 60psi with key-on engine not running. But with the car running, fuel pressure spikes to just under 80psi and fluctuates +/- 5psi or so.Is there any way the Sniper, O2 sensor, or the tune could be causing this, or is the problem have to rest with the fuel system (e.g., controller, pump, fp sensor, etc.)?

Didn't realize you were running a mech gauge. Those things are junk, and wouldn't trust it.

Sadly, the base Sniper units do not have the ability to use a transducer, but maybe your digital gauge setup can support using a transducer.

Or, you can buy a stand alone gauge that supports transducers.

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  #27  
Old 02-05-2023, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
My understanding is that he is running ptfe hose.

PTFE hose has very limited to no variation in inside diameter under psi, so can't understand how using it would help over hard line.


.
Apparently fuel pressure regulator with the ZL1 Vaporworx PWM controller does not like hard line. Glad he got rid of the hard line then.

  #28  
Old 02-05-2023, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
I missed where Holley instructions show to deadhead the Snipers/Stealth?

https://documents.holley.com/199r11971.pdf

Instructions and pic clearly show a bypass regulator.

Regular Sniper instructions:

https://documents.holley.com/199r11031r.pdf

Internal bypass regulator is used, return line comes directly from the throttlebody.

Many have had issues with the internal regulator, and the common corrective action is to install an external bypass regulator.

The psi issue has been addressed in numerous posts on the Holley EFI forums.

Just to say, in other non-holley installations, and in general, it is not recommended to run 2 dampers in series.



.
I probably didn't explain that clear enough. The Sniper Stealths purpose is to be able to run a single line up to the unit for a "stealth" appearance. They require a regulator as they don't come with one.

What I like to do is run the Aeromotive 13301 regulator, and I have it close to the engine, and run the return back to the tank. When I said dead head I was just simply explaining the very short run of feed line from the regulator to the EFI unit of about 2 feet.

The normal way to feed these EFI units would be the feed coming into the unit and the return coming out of the unit on the other side after it passes through all the injectors, similar to how a multi port EFI system would be done with fuel rails. But that defeats the purpose of having a "stealth" EFI system.

Running fuel through the unit and out the other side helps with the fuel pulsation issues that are most common with a single dead head type of line. Although the OEM's still usually incorporate a small dampener in most cases.

So in other words, any time you aren't running the feed through the Sniper and out the other side of the Sniper for continuous flow, or any other throttle body EFI, it's dead headed so to speak.

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Last edited by Formulajones; 02-05-2023 at 11:51 PM.
  #29  
Old 02-05-2023, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
Didn't realize you were running a mech gauge. Those things are junk, and wouldn't trust it.

Sadly, the base Sniper units do not have the ability to use a transducer, but maybe your digital gauge setup can support using a transducer.

Or, you can buy a stand alone gauge that supports transducers.

.
The Sniper will support a transducer for fuel pressure readings if you buy the "Super" Sniper, which is basically a Sniper that has extra inputs/outputs.

That's what I run so I can employ extra sensors for fuel pressure, oil pressure etc... and have that on the touch screen as well as datalogging.

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  #30  
Old 02-06-2023, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
The Sniper will support a transducer for fuel pressure readings if you buy the "Super" Sniper, which is basically a Sniper that has extra inputs/outputs.

That's what I run so I can employ extra sensors for fuel pressure, oil pressure etc... and have that on the touch screen as well as datalogging.
Yes, the XFlow too. The earlier Stealth setups came with the HP ECU, not sure what they use now. With the HP ECU, you have an upgrade path to SEFI without having to upgrade the ECU.

Transducers are fast-acting, and very accurate. Datalogging is very granular.


.

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  #31  
Old 02-06-2023, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
Yes, the XFlow too. The earlier Stealth setups came with the HP ECU, not sure what they use now. With the HP ECU, you have an upgrade path to SEFI without having to upgrade the ECU.

Transducers are fast-acting, and very accurate. Datalogging is very granular.


.
Honestly I'm not sure what they use now either. I've heard they separated the ECU's from the Stealth units on the later models. Not really what I wanted to hear but I guess makes it easier to service.

Yes those transducers are extremely fast acting. Took a bit getting used to vs an analog gauge. I actually compared the two, with good analog oil and fuel pressure gauges to the transducers at the same time on a running engine. Mainly to make sure they were accurate, but I found while the analog gauges were rock steady, the transducer readings do fluctuate around a few numbers back and forth extremely fast. Just normal I guess.
Did throw me for a loop on the fuel pressure though, related to this thread. I thought maybe the fuel pressure was fluctuating too much on the transducer so that's when I invested in a Radium dampener. I would have never noticed until the transducer was installed because the analog gauge was rock steady and I actually was driving the car for about a year before the switch to transducers and it ran perfectly fine. The dampener did calm down the transducer readings a good 90% but it still moves around back and forth a few PSI. Not a big deal. The big reason was so that I could datalog the fuel pressure during a pass and in a datalog I can look at any point of the run, so what I see fluctuating on the screen in real time doesn't really matter so much.

It's all pretty cool stuff when it works like it should.

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  #32  
Old 02-06-2023, 12:01 PM
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Does Holley have the ability to dampen the sample rate of the transducers internally where what you see is more steady? I do that on mine to help not see so much irrelevant movement in the readings. Then again mine reads in kpa, so the movements appear large, but are actually small when you're accustomed to watching psi...

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  #33  
Old 02-06-2023, 01:43 PM
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Talked with Carl this morning. He still believes the fuel pressure sensor is chasing pulses from the big injectors despite efforts to tame them. Curious if the Sniper is batch fired (i.e., all 4 injectors fire at once)?

Anyways, he's sending me all the items I need to change up my system to take care of it...stand alone map sensor, wiring, and an 60# internal regular for the GM fuel module. This will make it a return system, but it all happens within the fuel module so won't need to run a return line. Glad I put a hatch in my trunk to make it easy to pull out the fuel module.

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  #34  
Old 02-06-2023, 02:20 PM
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Hatches for easy access are a must with these things

Just for data purposes, both of the Snipers I'm running here are of the 8 injector variety with 8 100 lbs. injectors.....for what it's worth. Pulsations seem to be pretty much under control

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Old 02-06-2023, 02:21 PM
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Does Holley have the ability to dampen the sample rate of the transducers internally where what you see is more steady? I do that on mine to help not see so much irrelevant movement in the readings. Then again mine reads in kpa, so the movements appear large, but are actually small when you're accustomed to watching psi...
Not that I've seen on the Sniper software, but I'd bet it's probably on the Terminator X and Dominator stuff.

I can scale it, but haven't seen anything that will dampen the sample rate.

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Old 02-06-2023, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
Hatches for easy access are a must with these things

Just for data purposes, both of the Snipers I'm running here are of the 8 injector variety with 8 100 lbs. injectors.....for what it's worth. Pulsations seem to be pretty much under control
The way I understand it, it's not the injectors themselves that are creating my problem, it's the interaction of those injectors in concert with the sensitivity of the fuel pressure sensor and perhaps some unique combination of things in my fueling system/engine combination/ tune. The dampers reduce the pulses to tolerable levels, but apparently not enough to prevent the fp sensor from picking them up, resulting in the controller chasing them, which results in flections and spikes. The map referenced return strategy should provide a test of this theory. We'll see this weekend!

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Old 02-13-2023, 09:32 PM
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Last Friday I received a box of parts from Carl. So over the weekend I pulled the fuel module and installed the fuel pressure regulator, mounted the MAP sensor, swapped out VaporWorx controllers (underneath the dash), and ran new wires from the controller to MAP sensor. It took me a total of about 3 hours, including reading through the instructions.

The good news is that the car started right up, and the fuel pressure is rock steady right where it should be. When I have some time later this week, I need to adjust the voltage on the controller and clean up some odds and ends. I'll also experiment with the pulse dampers...may not need them now.

As somewhat of an aside, Carl at VaporWorx was super helpful...he couldn't have been any more responsive, patient, and generous with his time and sending me parts...absolutely amazing customer service and a really nice person.

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Old 02-13-2023, 09:59 PM
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That's great news. I'll be checking into one of their controllers soon. Thanks for posting results.

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  #39  
Old 02-16-2023, 07:30 PM
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I spoke with Carl today and can absolutely reinforce what Gator67 had to say about him. A super friendly, super helpful guy that goes out of his way. He's going to set up a test rig to see if one of his controllers will do what I need for my application. Whether it works out or not, kudos to Carl at Vaporworx! Definitely worth the call. Thanks to Gator67 for this.

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