[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by charlie66

No problem Troy.

I talked to Wade about this and im pretty sure he's going to change the directions of the procedure on this. If you think about it closely it makes alot of sense to measure the differences between the block side and cap. If there off by more then 0.010 and you sand the back of the seal evenly you wind up relieving more on the block side then needed. Even with the 2 piece , its says you can trim the ends to acomplish the fit. But Wade told me that he'd rather not and instead do it from the back / bottom of the seal like the 2 piece .. Usally you dont need much.. Mine was bad. My 2 piece flush on 1 side stuck out .055 on the other side of the cap and .033 on the block side ..

I was out messing with the engine today. Port matched the 4500 Victor that Wilcox did. Had to bring the top of the runners up quite a bit to match the High Ports.
Anyway, I set the one piece(uncut) in the block and then the rear main. It was up a good 1/32 off the block. So, I could sand the side of the seal that goes in the cap ?
The Best seal is pretty cheap, 20$

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by KEN CROCIE

Best Gasket seals don't like aftermarket cranks with coarse serrations .They tend to melt and stop sealing.
Poly seals don't like coarse serrations either. You get poly-rubber dust as the serrations grind away the seal. You don't notice until the seal starts leaking and you pull the pan for repair.
Please check your aftermarket cranks to see if the serrations are as smooth as a stocker.

This. It depends on the crank you are using. Some even polish the crank's serrations beforehand to avoid these issues.

I've used the rope seal that comes with the FelPro kits great results. It just takes time to do it 'right'.

Neoprene seals, polish the crank. Since it's not an issue with any clearance per-se, you can use a piece of strip sandpaper to work it.

.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

This. It depends on the crank you are using. Some even polish the crank's serrations beforehand to avoid these issues.

I've used the rope seal that comes with the FelPro kits great results. It just takes time to do it 'right'.

Neoprene seals, polish the crank. Since it's not an issue with any clearance per-se, you can use a piece of strip sandpaper to work it.

.

Originally Posted by KEN CROCIE

Best Gasket seals don't like aftermarket cranks with coarse serrations .They tend to melt and stop sealing.
Poly seals don't like coarse serrations either. You get poly-rubber dust as the serrations grind away the seal. You don't notice until the seal starts leaking and you pull the pan for repair.
Please check your aftermarket cranks to see if the serrations are as smooth as a stocker.

LOL I've mentioned this a couple times in the past when this subject comes up and get a bunch of people chime in that it doesn't matter

From what I've seen in my experience, the factory cranks are the ones with the serrations, and I've had to polish those down for the conventional seals. The aftermarket cranks, least the one dad is running, doesn't have any serrations in it and it's perfect for this type of thing.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

I was out messing with the engine today. Port matched the 4500 Victor that Wilcox did. Had to bring the top of the runners up quite a bit to match the High Ports.
Anyway, I set the one piece(uncut) in the block and then the rear main. It was up a good 1/32 off the block. So, I could sand the side of the seal that goes in the cap ?
The Best seal is pretty cheap, 20$

Dave does good work. I bet your new motor will run real strong..

Yeah i had to raise mine alot when i got to port matching...

The way Wade told me was look at each half of the seal like it was a clock. So with the block upside down the block side would be the bottom half and the cap would be the top half. The block side would be 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. So to sand it you will sand mostly at 6 - 5 and 7 O'clock.Then from there you will taper the rest of the sanding past 8 an 9 and 3 an 4 . This sounds more confusing then it is. Haha..
If i was you i would call Wade and he will walk you through it . He is a real nice guy ...

[HWYSTR455]

For me it was the opposite, the OE cranks are fine with the rope seals, only with the neoprene seals the hash marks required attention, or at least checked.

Depending on the brand aftermarket crank, where the hash marks are more pronounced, require attention, with neoprene seals, but I can't say for rope seals, because I personally have not tried a rope on an aftermarket crank.

I think Eagle cranks have serrations, and Ohio ones don't, but don't quote me on that.


.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Dave does good work. I bet your new motor will run real strong..

Yeah i had to raise mine alot when i got to port matching...

The way Wade told me was look at each half of the seal like it was a clock. So with the block upside down the block side would be the bottom half and the cap would be the top half. The block side would be 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. So to sand it you will sand mostly at 6 - 5 and 7 O'clock.Then from there you will taper the rest of the sanding past 8 an 9 and 3 an 4 . This sounds more confusing then it is. Haha..
If i was you i would call Wade and he will walk you through it . He is a real nice guy ...

Thx Charlie. Wouldn't you sand on the cap side because that it the side that has been cut ? Mostly on the 11,12 and 1 O'clock areas ?
I am confusing myself......... I will call Wade.

BTW, I expect this engine to run very strong. The ring seal should be excellent. Dan cured the block fill with a tq plate torqued down for months each side with the same 1016 head gasket I will use. Its the last engine Dan ever did, RIP my friend. Our friend in R.I. is helping pick out the cam. Sending out a 1050 to get calibrated for the first time in my life for this engine. It should be a beast.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

For me it was the opposite, the OE cranks are fine with the rope seals, only with the neoprene seals the hash marks required attention, or at least checked.

Depending on the brand aftermarket crank, where the hash marks are more pronounced, require attention, with neoprene seals, but I can't say for rope seals, because I personally have not tried a rope on an aftermarket crank.

I think Eagle cranks have serrations, and Ohio ones don't, but don't quote me on that.


.

Well my s Scat forgings are smooth and the Eagle crank I just sold had the light serrations.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

For me it was the opposite, the OE cranks are fine with the rope seals, only with the neoprene seals the hash marks required attention, or at least checked.

Depending on the brand aftermarket crank, where the hash marks are more pronounced, require attention, with neoprene seals, but I can't say for rope seals, because I personally have not tried a rope on an aftermarket crank.

I think Eagle cranks have serrations, and Ohio ones don't, but don't quote me on that.


.

Yes I agree, OE cranks are fine with rope seals, as they have the serrations. It was my understanding as I was told, the serrations were there for that. So when ever I switch over to a conventional seal (meaning a lip seal) I would either dress those serrations or have the machine shop do it in advance knowing that's what the engine was going to get.

Those seals are designed to work on a smooth surface, as seen in other applications like axle seals, timing cover seals etc..... Doesn't take a lot of thought to figure out those serrations might not be a good idea when switching to a conventional seal. But some people feel otherwise.

Dad's is an Ohio Crank. It's a smooth surface. I have pictures of the crank but nothing that shows the seal area at the moment. Going to do the rear main in it soon. Going with the 2 piece BOP as that's what I've always used with excellent results. Not pulling the crank out of this one.

Oddly Bischoff had trouble with this rear main when building the engine, and the BOP seal was replaced 3 times while on the dyno. Within a couple pulls it would leak horribly (another reason everyone should dyno their engines) Turned out the MR1 block didn't have venting back there and oil was trapped in that area.
Tony relieved the block and cap around the seal and the rest of the dyno pulls went leak free. Been a few years now and it's leaking again. Don't know what his install procedures are so I'll be curious to see what I find when I pull it apart. I've got my suspicions.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Thx Charlie. Wouldn't you sand on the cap side because that it the side that has been cut ? Mostly on the 11,12 and 1 O'clock areas ?
I am confusing myself......... I will call Wade.

BTW, I expect this engine to run very strong. The ring seal should be excellent. Dan cured the block fill with a tq plate torqued down for months each side with the same 1016 head gasket I will use. Its the last engine Dan ever did, RIP my friend. Our friend in R.I. is helping pick out the cam. Sending out a 1050 to get calibrated for the first time in my life for this engine. It should be a beast.

You would be checking both the cap and the block to see where each one is for the fit. So its not that the cap was cut and the bolck wasnt. The block could of been off from the factory. The rope was more forgiving for error. The Viton not as much. So you really need to trim accordingly. You will do the same checking procedure for bolth to see what needs to be done. My cap side needed much more sanding then the block . Just square up one side of the seal to the parting edge and measure whats protruding out on the other side. You need no more the .0020" and no less then .015" . So if you need to take some off take it from the very bottom and work you way up the sides tappering as you sand. The half should slowly start to drop in to the number you're shooting for.... This would be for a 2 piece seal . The 1 piece is the same but different . The 1 piece you have to orient for one position and sand off what the measurements are from each side .. Im not the one to ask when it comes to the one piece . Haha.. Sorry .. Wade explains it well. You should call him.. He'll tune you up and get you going no doubt..

Thats a good idea . The rings are everything. I did mine different this time around and im very happy ..

Yes our friend knows his cams. Good choice for determining that . Im sure that you will be more then happy...

[lust4speed]

Originally Posted by charlie66

...with the block upside down the block side would be the bottom half and the cap would be the top half. The block side would be 3 4 5 6 7 8 9...

Okay, just one small bitch on the callouts. The driver's side of the block is always the left side and the passenger side is always the right side, top of the block will always be the top, and the bottom of the block will always be the bottom. 6:00 o'clock to me will always be the dead bottom of the cap regardless of where the block is spun on the stand. Turning an engine upside down doesn't change the positions. If someone says that I should check the #4 journal for a ding at 11:00 o'clock I don't have to ask is that counting from the rear of the block or front, or is that with the engine upside down on the stand?

Sorry, carry on...

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

Okay, just one small bitch on the callouts. The driver's side of the block is always the left side and the passenger side is always the right side, top of the block will always be the top, and the bottom of the block will always be the bottom. 6:00 o'clock to me will always be the dead bottom of the cap regardless of where the block is spun on the stand. Turning an engine upside down doesn't change the positions. If someone says that I should check the #4 journal for a ding at 11:00 o'clock I don't have to ask is that counting from the rear of the block or front, or is that with the engine upside down on the stand?

Sorry, carry on...

In 360 degrees theres no top or bottom. No one puts a crank and seal in with the engine right side up on the stand. I guess you like laying on your back!

Just trying to answer a question the best i can..

[Formulajones]

Actually, I have done a few seals with the engine in the car, on a lift, in cases where the oil pan can be removed and no need to drop the crank.

That's how flat rate mechanics did it all the time back in the day.

[Murf]

Am I “missrembering”, I thought there was a service manual procedure for replacement in chassis. Using that Chinese finger trap type tool. I’m old so I’m probably wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Tom Vaught]

REAR MAIN OIL SEAL (REMOVE AND REPLACE)

1) Remove the Oil Pan
2) Remove the Oil Pump and Windage Baffle
3) Remove the Rear Main Bearing Cap
4) Using the Rear Mail Bearing Oil Seal BRASS Tool
remove the original oil seal located in the block
5) Install the new rear main oil seal by first cutting one
rope seal into two sections.
6) Insert one portion of the seal into the seal cavity of
the block until 1 inch of seal is remaining.
7) Repeat step 6 on the opposite side of the crankshaft
in that portion of the block cavity.
8) when you have firmly seated the rope seal around the
crankshaft in the block (the rope seals should be 3/8 inches
lower that the block surface.
Proceed to step 9
9) Using tool J7588 install the second rope seal in the rear
main bearing cap.
10) Remove the seal from the rear main cap and cut 4 pieces
3/8" long in that rope seal.
11) Work two of the 3/8" seal pieces into the rope seal cavities
in the block
12) Work the remaining two 3/8" pieces into the cavities (around
THE CRANK and compress those seals to where they are flush with
the parting line of the block. NO SEAL MATERIAL SHOULD BE ON THE
SURFACE OF THE BLOCK
13) Repeat the steps for the main cap using tool J-7588
14) Once all 4 sections of the seal material is located properly
tighten the main cap to 120 +/- 10 lbs ft.

This is the procedure that was given to me by the World War II
Mechanic who was Head mechanic at my uncle's Pontiac Dealership.

It somewhat resembles the basic Shop Manual instructions but is
hand written and it more detail.

Tom V.

ps One of our PY members (Suntuned) and his dad made me a very nice J-7588
tool years and years ago.

[beargfr]

During my last build, I tried one of the 1-piece double lip seals because it seemed like they just had to be "the answer". I followed meticulously the instructions from BOP, even the ones I got on a phone call with regard to measuring the "crush" (difference between crank diameter and seal inner diameter, sanding the outside to get the difference in spec, making sure that there wasn't any 'pucker' at the cut). I put it all together using my hoist to lower the crank into the block so I could make sure it all stayed lined up correctly, filled it with 2 gallons of oil and hung it butt down from my hoist for a week to make sure it was leak-free. It was.

In the car and running, it leaked.

Several weeks ago I pulled it again to do some other work, and this is what I found. Yes, I filled the space between the seal lips with high quality grease.

Eagle forged crank, with serrations - I didn't have it polished because I was advised "it would be ok" - and it didn't feel rough to the touch. I run main studs instead of bolts so the block was align honed for that.

This time, I'll be using the graphite rope.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by beargfr

During my last build, I tried one of the 1-piece double lip seals because it seemed like they just had to be "the answer". I followed meticulously the instructions from BOP, even the ones I got on a phone call with regard to measuring the "crush" (difference between crank diameter and seal inner diameter, sanding the outside to get the difference in spec, making sure that there wasn't any 'pucker' at the cut). I put it all together using my hoist to lower the crank into the block so I could make sure it all stayed lined up correctly, filled it with 2 gallons of oil and hung it butt down from my hoist for a week to make sure it was leak-free. It was.

In the car and running, it leaked.

Several weeks ago I pulled it again to do some other work, and this is what I found. Yes, I filled the space between the seal lips with high quality grease.

Eagle forged crank, with serrations - I didn't have it polished because I was advised "it would be ok" - and it didn't feel rough to the touch. I run main studs instead of bolts so the block was align honed for that.

This time, I'll be using the graphite rope.

Bear, I've read (and now I see it on yours) that the aftermarket cranks have much more pronounced hash marks than the original cranks. I think the only choice here would be a Best Gasket square type rope seal. I've installed several 2 piece Viton seals (the most recent one about 8 years ago) on small journal Pontiacs, with 100% success years and many miles later on each engine. I helped a friend install a one-piece Viton in his stock '69 GTO, which was just a re-seal job and timing chain on an original 60,000 mile car, and that was about 3 years ago now and it too worked just fine. With the rope seals, the ONLY one I would use today is the Best Gasket one, as the 'factory' types have been asbestos free for the past 30-odd years and tend to leak. The old-school asbestos rope I installed in my '65 GTO in 1981 is still leak free with 50,000 miles on the engine. The new style rope seal I installed in my '67 GTO in the late '80's leaked after about 500 miles. Since re-sealing it with a 2-piece Viton, not a drop. Good luck.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by beargfr

During my last build, I tried one of the 1-piece double lip seals because it seemed like they just had to be "the answer". I followed meticulously the instructions from BOP, even the ones I got on a phone call with regard to measuring the "crush" (difference between crank diameter and seal inner diameter, sanding the outside to get the difference in spec, making sure that there wasn't any 'pucker' at the cut). I put it all together using my hoist to lower the crank into the block so I could make sure it all stayed lined up correctly, filled it with 2 gallons of oil and hung it butt down from my hoist for a week to make sure it was leak-free. It was.

In the car and running, it leaked.

Several weeks ago I pulled it again to do some other work, and this is what I found. Yes, I filled the space between the seal lips with high quality grease.

Eagle forged crank, with serrations - I didn't have it polished because I was advised "it would be ok" - and it didn't feel rough to the touch. I run main studs instead of bolts so the block was align honed for that.

This time, I'll be using the graphite rope.

Wow ! ive never seen that happen . That must of leaked pretty good. Yeah get the graphite seal . Ive used them and they work .. The crank i just got made didnt have the serrations thank god..

Good luck..

[Formulajones]

I've seen it. You'll have better luck with a rope seal as long as you keep those serrations. They are there to lubricate the rope seals and keep them from drying out.

If you want to go back to a more conventional seal, those serrations will have to be polished down.

[i82much]

i like my old cars to have a few leaks, that is how i know they haven’t run dry!

[Formulajones]

That's how we mark territory