[78w72]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

Just out of curiosity I went to Art Carrs site. For the 200-400 HP 200R4 its $2499 with a 300 core charge, shipping and I dont think that comes with a converter. Add $400 for the 400-600 HP model. Im sure you can probably get that cheaper locally, but by how much? Arent transmission rebuilds just expensive these days period? And do you trust a 200R4 built by someone who isnt an expert specifically on that model? Like I said earlier, Im not one of the guys yelling DONT DO IT with the 200s, but there are only a handful of names I feel good about in that process.

We probably have some transmission rebuilders on the site. I would be curious what real world gets charged for a 200r4 and for a 4l80e to be freshened up. I havent had it done in over a decade, so Im sure I am out of touch. I only ever see the Boutique type shop prices on the internet.

Moral of the story I guess that is that getting overdrive into a classic BOP isnt cheap. Especially if you are making any kind of power.

i may be a little out of touch too on prices for a complete 200r, havent checked the art carr site for a few years, looks like the 400hp is $2500 now & the 600hp is the added cost. as with anything in 2021, prices have increased a ridiculous amount, pre covid i bet the 400hp was a few hundred under 2k.

i did just have a th350c rebuilt locally in the last 2-3 years, called around to the big name trans shops, they wanted $600-$800, aamco being the highest & the others were bigger shops that have been around my town for 30-40 years. this is for a basic rebuild, no fancy race parts but included a name brand rebuild kit, 1yr warranty, with me bringing the trans to them. not sure how much more a 200r, 700r, or 4l60/80 would be.

im all for using the better trans if/when its needed. for this situation its going to be cruising around town & doing 70+mph commutes on the highway with 400hp . in this case the 200 would probably be the cheaper & easier install, i recall HPP was doing some articles on 200r swap & you could use a factory x/member, & maybe even the stock driveshaft, no trans tunnel mods & keep the factory shifter.

i fully agree any OD option will be expensive. in this situation, a cheaper & easier way by far would be to just change the rear gear, a 3.08 or 2.73 would be ok except for long interstate trips at 80+mph. & could keep the good th400.

[76TA462]

Not sure for the GP but for my 76 TA when I swapped from TH400 to 2004R I used the same cross member in the same place and only had to use a slightly taller tranny mount, the same drive shaft with no length change, a new yoke (GM 27 spline), no mods to tunnel, used same B&M Mega shifter that came with ability to go to 4 speed, added a TV cable set-up and used great instructions available from Extreme (and elsewhere I am sure) and a Comp Cam mount kit (304147) for my Sniper since the universal mount was problematic, and I was highly advised to get a good cooler with fan (went to the Derale 13720 for the recommended specs - could have went cheaper but wanted to get past nervousness from over thinking) and matching inline thermostat Derale 35020.

[KenB]

Lonnie Dyer (sp?) at Extreme Automatics in Amelia Ohio (Cincinnati east side) is one of the most reputable 2004R guys for the Turbo Buick crowd. However some $$ not sure how his prices compare. And of course he does other transmissions
My buddy has one in his ‘87 TType WE4.
I am considering to budget for one of his trans when the day comes.

Re Monte SS better trans, IIRC the difference is valve body used in in Monte SS, turbo Buicks, and maybe 442, something about G or F….

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

The only problem I have with a yanked 4L80E is mileage and how it was taken care of. Most people in the last 20 years couldn't care less about changing transmission fluid, and most of those 4L80E's were used in trucks hauling and towing heavy loads. Many of them, if you can find one, have well over 150,000 to 200,000 miles already.

I was told by an employee at Hughes that cores are now getting harder to find, hence the core prices have increased nearly double. In fact, he wanted to buy all the 400 turbos I have laying here as they are also getting more difficult to find.

For me personally, sticking a used one in the car just isn't an option. With everything else built and restored throughout the car, installing a used trans just doesn't sound appealing, lol.

I don't mean to steer anyone away from a 4L80E, but any trans that is 15-20 years old I'd expect at least a basic rebuild should be in order, with new solenoids and wire harness included to minimize problems.

The good thing is that rebuilding one isn't all that expensive. You don't have to beef them really at all up to 750-850hp. I good basic rebuild with quality clutches/steels isn't hard to do. If you can rebuild a 350/400 turbo you can do a 4L80E. In fact most fresh 4L80's offered by vendors advertise 750-850hp with nothing more than a solid rebuild. Only difference between that and the 1000HP models is a billet input shaft.

Are the 4L80 cores or T400 cores getting hard to find?

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

Are the 4L80 cores or T400 cores getting hard to find?

Both according to Hughes, at least around these parts anyway

[Hillard]

So just to give you a little more insight into my ultimate goal with this car. It's my 69 GP that I've owned since July 1985. It was my daily driver for several years until I decided to only use it ocassionally in order to preserve it. Now I've decided that instead of having it sit most of the time, I want to drive it again most, or all of the time. So I'm going with the original 400 block, bore to 4.155, I have a 4" stroke forged crank with 3" mains, bbc rod journals, I'll use 6.8 H-beams. I'm thinking about using Edelbrock D-ports (no porting except maybe a "clean-up"), shoot for 10:1 compression, hydraulic roller 220/228 .470 lift on a 112 (approx specs). RPM intake 800 cfm Q-jet. AOD trans that we've been talking about, and 3.55 gears. Eventually I'll put bigger brakes w/ disc all around and upgrade the suspension with aftermarket control arms, adjustable shocks, sway bars, etc. Once I get the car where I want it, I intend on running the Silver State Classic with it at least once so I can mark that off my bucket list. Right now I have not begun on this at all. It's just on paper so things might change.

[Hillard]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

"Right now I'm leaning towards using the 200 that I have, simply because I already have it. If it breaks, I'll regret it, pitch it in the scrap, and find a 4L80E."

Based on my personal experience consider converting it to a non-lock up torque converter. I can highly recommend the Bowtie Overdrives TV and Throttle Cable SYSTEMS. That is we used on my 200 4R.

Can I ask why make it non-lock up?

[Hillard]

Originally Posted by 78w72

i may be a little out of touch too on prices for a complete 200r, havent checked the art carr site for a few years, looks like the 400hp is $2500 now & the 600hp is the added cost. as with anything in 2021, prices have increased a ridiculous amount, pre covid i bet the 400hp was a few hundred under 2k.

i did just have a th350c rebuilt locally in the last 2-3 years, called around to the big name trans shops, they wanted $600-$800, aamco being the highest & the others were bigger shops that have been around my town for 30-40 years. this is for a basic rebuild, no fancy race parts but included a name brand rebuild kit, 1yr warranty, with me bringing the trans to them. not sure how much more a 200r, 700r, or 4l60/80 would be.

im all for using the better trans if/when its needed. for this situation its going to be cruising around town & doing 70+mph commutes on the highway with 400hp . in this case the 200 would probably be the cheaper & easier install, i recall HPP was doing some articles on 200r swap & you could use a factory x/member, & maybe even the stock driveshaft, no trans tunnel mods & keep the factory shifter.

i fully agree any OD option will be expensive. in this situation, a cheaper & easier way by far would be to just change the rear gear, a 3.08 or 2.73 would be ok except for long interstate trips at 80+mph. & could keep the good th400.

I intend on taking long interstate trips and running the Silver State Classic with it. So I'll have to bite the bullet and spend the $$.

[Formulajones]

You won't regret the overdrive decision. The initial cost might sting at first but after you drive the car you'll wonder why it wasn't done sooner.

One thing I really like about 200's are the gear ratios. The 2.74 first gear will really help get that big car moving, and the .67 overdrive will work nice with 3.55's.
2100 rpm will be about 70 mph with a 27-ish tall tire.

A lot of builders shy away from the lockup converter on these types of TV cable transmissions mainly because of the way it's activated. Usually electric solenoid via vacuum switch or one of the two. Very hard to adjust them to engage exactly where you want, and behind an engine with a bumpy camshaft can cause chugging when engaged at an inopportune time. Some of the vacuum switches can be tweaked with a small adjustment screw but the range is very limited.

That's where the electronic control transmissions have an advantage, as that lockup feature can now be programmed via computer to engage and disengage anywhere you please.

Even with that said, looking at your current planned build, and I'm sure you already know this, but a ~434-ish engine with a 220/228 @ .050 cam on a 112 should idle pretty darn smooth and produce a ton of vacuum, so I wouldn't suspect chugging with a lockup converter to be an issue.

[ta man]

Originally Posted by KenB

Lonnie Dyer (sp?) at Extreme Automatics in Amelia Ohio (Cincinnati east side) is one of the most reputable 2004R guys for the Turbo Buick crowd. However some $$ not sure how his prices compare. And of course he does other transmissions
My buddy has one in his ‘87 TType WE4.
I am considering to budget for one of his trans when the day comes.

Re Monte SS better trans, IIRC the difference is valve body used in in Monte SS, turbo Buicks, and maybe 442, something about G or F….

Janis transmission in Akron Ohio is also one of the go to shops for the Buick guys.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Hillard

I intend on taking long interstate trips and running the Silver State Classic with it. So I'll have to bite the bullet and spend the $$.

ok wasnt sure on things like that, just a suggestion on a gear change.

[Gary H]

Originally Posted by Hillard

I appreciate all the feedback. Right now I'm leaning towards using the 200 that I have, simply because I already have it. If it breaks, I'll regret it, pitch it in the scrap, and find a 4L80E.

Go with the 200. It's FAR cheaper than the 4l80E to install. I've put all three in different cars, 200, 700, and 4L80E's. The 4L800 takes the controller, bellhousing adapter, and it is expensive to buy initially. Certainly stronger, but at your power level a properly built 200 should be fine.

[Steve C.]

What Larry said...

"A lot of builders shy away from the lockup converter on these types of TV cable transmissions mainly because of the way it's activated. Usually electric solenoid via vacuum switch or one of the two. Very hard to adjust them to engage exactly where you want, and behind an engine with a bumpy camshaft can cause chugging when engaged at an inopportune time. Some of the vacuum switches can be tweaked with a small adjustment screw but the range is very limited."

At the time I had a lock-up converter installed the cam was either a 260 or 255 @ .050" solid roller with 0.701" or 0.709" lift and a 110 LSA, I don't remember which now. It was "bumpy". That can lead to issues Larry eludes to.

Much will depend on the overall combination but for me personally with bigger cams and anywhere from 635-660 HP the best thing we did early on was to change to a non lock up converter on my 2004R transmission.
That and a proper TV cable hook up.

My non-lock up converter was built by Continental and purchased thru Cliff Ruggles. It is well coupled out on the open highway with about a 200 rpm slippage. The transmission has been in service for almost 12 years.


.

[Hooter]

I run a Gear Vendors in my '65 only because it was added after I'd already been running a high dollar built T400. It works great, but I wish the OD was deeper than 0.78. If I were starting from scratch with nothing, 4L80 would be my choice in a higher hp car.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Hooter

I run a Gear Vendors in my '65 only because it was added after I'd already been running a high dollar built T400. It works great, but I wish the OD was deeper than 0.78. If I were starting from scratch with nothing, 4L80 would be my choice in a higher hp car.

Yep that's honestly been my only complaint with it.

Wouldn't think it would be that hard to design another one with a little more reduction to fill that void, there really isn't much to the unit. It's been .78 for as long as I can remember.

What I don't like now is that Tremec is starting to follow that trend as the new TKX has jumped up to a .68 now instead of the .64 they had for decades. They would have been better served changing that horrible 2-3 gear spread and left OD alone.

[JLBIII]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

What Larry said...
My non-lock up converter was built by Continental and purchased thru Cliff Ruggles. It is well coupled out on the open highway with about a 200 rpm slippage. The transmission has been in service for almost 12 years.

I heard Continental has been shut down for some time now. Any recommendations for a non-locking converter?

[Steve C.]

Lenny is one of the best....

http://www.ultimateconverter.com


Lenny at UCC used to work with Kris at Continental years ago.
A few years ago my non lock up Continental torque converter in my 2004R transmission developed a cracked hub where it is welded into the body.
We sent it to Lenny for repairs.


.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Hillard

I think I'm going to start using my 69 GP as my daily driver again. Looking to install an overdrive trans and debating on what to use. I have a fairly fresh T-400 in the car and thought about using a Gear Vendors overdrive, but they are not cheap. I also thought about a $L80E but to find a rebuilt one, and buy a converter, and then get a controller, it seems to end about the same price. And the Gear Vendors seem like it would be less work to install. What have you used, and are you happy with it?

Mikes Answer to this: Go for the Gear Vendors. My car came with it as part of the purchase so I paid for It one way or the other. I can cruise at 3,000 RPM at 80 MPH on 15' Rims on the High- way with the GV on. Off, your down 500 Rpm and better Off slowing down. I use the TH 400 Automatic with a B+M Shift kit and shifter add the GV button on the shifter Grip. Mike Out. P.S. Gear Vendors has a fine screen in it and it needs to stay clear and DON'T use Synthetic on a street application. Also, I run 3.23 Gears in the Rear End.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes Answer to this: Go for the Gear Vendors. My car came with it as part of the purchase so I paid for It one way or the other. I can cruise at 3,000 RPM at 80 MPH on 15" Rims and the tallest tire Cooper could put on my Turbo 8.5 Wide Rims on the High- way with the GV on. Off, your lower 500 Rpm and better Off slowing down. I use the TH 400 Automatic with a B+M Shift kit and shifter. Add the GV button on the shifter Grip. Mike Out. P.S. Gear Vendors has a fine screen in it and it needs to stay clear and DON'T use Synthetic on a street application. Also, I run 3.23 Gears in the Rear End.

Mike Answer to this: I drive a 1979 Pontiac TA with some extra weight dual batt., Roll Bars throughout, extra fans, everything has coolers etc... The weight of the entire Vehicle is now closer to 4,000 lbs. Although I have never weighed it. Since you have the TH 400 and it works, keep it because they are original and built strong in the 1960's -69 from what I have read and experienced. See my other posts for more of my parts description's, if you wish, they might help in your decision. Mike Out. P.S. By the way, the Gear Vendors will give you 6 forward Gears (splitting each of the 3 in half) in Manual for racing or if you simply wish to wind out each Gear to its Max. RPM range. I use the Automatic switch constantly for Over Drive Daily. It will be the best money spent I can't do without mine!

[Cardo]

+2 on Lonnie at Extreme. I'm also running one of his 200R4's - no problems at all yet. Using a Lock-up converter. works great. 400 HP 460 TQ combo.