#41  
Old 11-07-2024, 12:11 AM
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'Splash lube' at lower engine RPM... real or perceived ?


.
Real, according to the FT break in procedure since forever, to raise RPM to lubricate lobes during break in. Now once broken in, are we saying that the lube running down over the cam from the top end return, is enough to lube the flat tappet cam for extended operation below 1800 RPM? Remember, the FT cam (and the pontiac engine) had mostly gone away by the time the first OD transmissions came out.

As for cam recommendations, choose based on lowest expected cruise RPM at OD with converter locked. You want a cam that establishes good port velocity at that RPM, not still in "hot for teacher" reversion that will buck at that low loaded RPM. I'm thinking 068 to 2801 territory. The Lunati 702 may be the biggest you want to use. A small roller might get you a broader powerband and still smooth it down low.

Its the stock converter and lockup behavior you gotta watch for. Late model motors like LS can increase the lockup speeds, use higher stalls and stretch the shift points when the cams get frisky. Harder to do without a computer controlled transmission.

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  #42  
Old 11-07-2024, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Formulas View Post
is there a pic available of the plunger area of the Crower cam savers?
Crower Hydraulic Flat Face Lifter Pontiac & Oldsmobile V8 with Cam Saver Oiling
SKU 66056X3

.0025 Groove from the oil band to the lifer face for reduced lobe wear

Heavy Duty Snap Ring

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  #43  
Old 11-07-2024, 08:49 AM
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FWIW…If the engine operated much above 1200 RPM cruising in OD I doubt you could see lubrication issues with the cam. Most continuous duty industrial engines usually operate at around 1760 RPM (basically every American V8 has been used for irrigation pumps here in the Midwest). They don’t have much trouble with cams versus anything else, probably actually have less trouble versus in a vehicle.

We have found small cams do not necessarily make the engine super efficient at pulling vehicles with overdrives. I think it is because some of those smaller cams you end up with unexpected pumping losses. You can actually add a lot of cam with some hot for the teacher idle and still get good fuel economy. I recall Richard Guido’s turbo charged 1400 HP 500+ cid Pontiac getting over 20 mpg on his long trips from Canada to the drag and drive events. Last I knew that had a Bullet SR cam in it in the 240*s @ .050” on a wider LSA. My pump gas TA usually gets the lower 20s for fuel economy with 3.23s, it is an 11:1 461 with a 245*/253* 114LSA @.050” Bullet roller cam. It has a hot for the teacher idle like a RA4 cam. The roller cams definetly can help with the average low end power. I often see guys want all the power in by 5000 with an overdrive to get good fuel economy, but it does not always work like they think it will. Part throttle does odd stuff. My TA is just starting to go when it hits 5000.

  #44  
Old 11-07-2024, 11:00 AM
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"....are we saying that the lube running down over the cam from the top end return, is enough to lube the flat tappet cam for extended operation below 1800 RPM? "

One observation....

"You'd be amazed at how much oil naturally comes out the bottom of the lifter bore, and floods the cam lobe. It's a solid column of oil, completely around the lifter, dumping onto the cam.
Just prime an engine without the valley pan on, and you'll see what I mean. It dumps quite a bit with a cold 20/50, so you can imagine how it comes out when the oil is hot."

Paul Carter
Carter Cryogenics
Koerner Racing Engines



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Old 11-07-2024, 02:11 PM
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Yup, I even have a video of it on my YouTube channel, of a Pontiac engine no less. It's massive amounts of oil that just floods out around the lifter, so much so it's amazing any of it actually makes it through the push rod and to the rocker arms.

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Old 12-19-2024, 05:25 PM
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Where would one look to having a cam nitrited?

  #47  
Old 12-19-2024, 06:16 PM
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I am happy with old faithful and newer Comp 857's. A little ticky when it is fully heat soaked but hasn't blown up yet. Will report back when it does.

  #48  
Old 12-19-2024, 07:01 PM
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There are multiple places in Michigan that offer nitriding processes.

Start here......

https://www.ahtcorp.com/services/nit...urizing%20(FNC).


https://sunsteeltreating.com/#:~:tex...to%2030%20tons.

Ordering a new cam from Comp ?

COMP Cams has proven their technological leadership by becoming the first aftermarket valve train company to own and operate a Pro Plasma™ Nitriding service in-house.


.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
Best time 5.13 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #49  
Old 12-19-2024, 07:42 PM
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I am happy with old faithful and newer Comp 857's. A little ticky when it is fully heat soaked but hasn't blown up yet. Will report back when it does.
Which newer Comp HR lifters? 857S or the cartridge style?

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  #50  
Old 12-19-2024, 07:57 PM
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Which newer Comp HR lifters? 857S or the cartridge style?
not the evolutions, the older newer ones, if that makes any sense.

  #51  
Old 12-19-2024, 09:49 PM
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The older before the Evolutions were the ones made by Shaver Engineering in So Cal for Comp.The Evolution looks the same except it has the cartridge.Tom

  #52  
Old 12-20-2024, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Where would one look to having a cam nitrited?
I've been having Comp do it.

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  #53  
Old 12-20-2024, 01:20 PM
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The problem is that there doesn’t seem to be a clear consensus on which roller lifters are good for a basic mild build without buying the most expensive Johnson’s so it’s almost a pick you poison on a HFT or roller.

  #54  
Old 12-20-2024, 02:42 PM
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As far as I'm concerned there's only one pick whether it's a mild build or not, and that's the Hylift Johnson's with pin oiling. Yeah they are expensive, last set was $1400 for a sbc build I did just recently and I've seen the price as high as $1600, but I've never had or seen a set fail as in breakage, they run perfectly quiet, and I've had them in engines for many years without a problem. While others run cheaper brands and have issues with link bars, bleed down rates, noise, broken wheels, etc..... The problem though is price (understandable) and the fact that they are hit and miss as far as availability, they seem to go through stints where they are hard to get for months.

Probably a very close second would be the new evolutions, but even those are $700 which most here will consider too expensive as well. I'm actually going to try a set in another build I'm doing. At least if you get a noisy one you can swap out the cartridge for minimal cost. They have pin oiling and they've made the bodies thicker/stronger than previous versions from Comp. So it has potential.

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Old 12-20-2024, 05:06 PM
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I really doubt the 4/7 swap will add any power on a small street cam, the 4/7 swap will sound a little different. Howard’s retrofit HR cams use a stock distributer gear, which is nice. I think they are usually Sadi cores, which is not so nice, it is why they are priced cheaper and can run that stock gear. We have a pretty big .4” lobe Howards in an engine running .640” lift.
.
The Howards is actually a 1050 core. Not a Sadi. I thought I better correct that with this thread is still going.


Last edited by Jay S; 12-20-2024 at 05:29 PM.
  #56  
Old 12-20-2024, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
As far as I'm concerned there's only one pick whether it's a mild build or not, and that's the Hylift Johnson's with pin oiling. Yeah they are expensive, last set was $1400 for a sbc build I did just recently and I've seen the price as high as $1600, but I've never had or seen a set fail as in breakage, they run perfectly quiet, and I've had them in engines for many years without a problem. While others run cheaper brands and have issues with link bars, bleed down rates, noise, broken wheels, etc..... The problem though is price (understandable) and the fact that they are hit and miss as far as availability, they seem to go through stints where they are hard to get for months.

Probably a very close second would be the new evolutions, but even those are $700 which most here will consider too expensive as well. I'm actually going to try a set in another build I'm doing. At least if you get a noisy one you can swap out the cartridge for minimal cost. They have pin oiling and they've made the bodies thicker/stronger than previous versions from Comp. So it has potential.
That’s kind of my point, either pay the top dollar for the most expensive rollers or according to the six page thread on the new Evolutions once you figure out what the proper preload is that seems to be a moving target from the manufacturer buy some extra cartridges “just in case”

It’s almost 2025 & we’re dealing with either paying stupid money for lifters, guessing from a large manufacturer or worrying about flat lobes, no wonder guys switch to LS motors, what a sad state of affairs for us as Pontiac lovers.

  #57  
Old 12-20-2024, 05:35 PM
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That’s kind of my point, either pay the top dollar for the most expensive rollers or according to the six page thread on the new Evolutions once you figure out what the proper preload is that seems to be a moving target from the manufacturer buy some extra cartridges “just in case”

It’s almost 2025 & we’re dealing with either paying stupid money for lifters, guessing from a large manufacturer or worrying about flat lobes, no wonder guys switch to LS motors, what a sad state of affairs for us as Pontiac lovers.
Most problems on this have arose from engines that use HR cams to get a lot more power. Pick a small mild profile, .5” ish lift, with a cam intensity of 54* or more from .006” to .050”, don’t use to heavy of springs, and you will more than likely never be into your engine to look a the cam again, even with cheaper Morel or comp lifters.

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  #58  
Old 12-21-2024, 07:53 AM
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I have 5,000 miles on an older set (2010 ) of morels from Bullet and I don’t think that make any excessive racket . Makes about as much noise as a stock 5.3 LS that I had .

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  #59  
Old 12-21-2024, 03:30 PM
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Final drive of 2.38 to 1 in OD.... the 702 cam should be a faster rate with good lift for stock/mild heads. I like the 9.25 cr to be safe with todays gas.
I feel your already on a good plan... I would suggest Good lifters...and light springs for a camshaft break in...just to be as safe as possible.
And as always oils, for us old flat tappet people.

  #60  
Old 12-21-2024, 07:40 PM
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Retro rollers will be OK for low mileage applications that get a lot of attention. Failure rates support support this fact.

Solves some problems causes others that have not been resolved. Buy buy buy they will sort it out...

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