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Old 03-28-2023, 10:34 PM
74Grandville 74Grandville is offline
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Default 455 with SUM-2802 vs Mel-Spc-8 = same power

I've been playing with Desktop Dyno 5 and moving cam centerlines around on a potential future 455 build and comparing the 2802 type cam with a 041.

I did something similar building a w72 equivalent using a Spc-4 cam (066).

to make similar power to a 78 w72 cam, I retarred the 066 from its stock 106 centerline to around 113. this showed around the same power as a stock w72 in desktop dyno 5. Reviewing all the other stock Pontiac cams, I noticed most of them install around 113 so i figured i was safe retarding the 066. in the end it worked out great, I’m very happy with the build. it sounds much more radical then a normal low compression 400, but pulls strong to 5k.

Back to the 455. it will be a 9.5:1, ported 6x-8 build. originally i planned to install an 041 style cam at 110 with v-max rhoads. (very common setup) But then i started playing around with the idea of running a 2802 considering my compression is a little lower then i wanted. I've noticed if I install the 2802 at a 115 intake centerline it shows identical power as the 041 at 110.

Then i got to thinking, why doesn't anyone recommend this? also, will it have better manners at idle?

115 is about -2 degrees from a standard 744 so not totally out of wack. I do understand this will cause the exhaust valve to get closer to the piston, so that will be checked.

I wanted to hear your thoughts.
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Last edited by 74Grandville; 03-28-2023 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 03-29-2023, 06:30 AM
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What info are you inputting for cylinder head flow numbers, and also will you be running headrers on this motor?

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Old 03-29-2023, 06:55 AM
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I gathered the flow numbers from Jim Hands book. I will be running headers.


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Old 03-29-2023, 08:21 AM
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Are you using .050" events to make the comparison, advertised seat timing, or something else?

The RAIV camshaft wasn't measured at .006" tappet lift and I doubt if the 2802 was either. Most aftermarket cams are rated at .006" tappet lift for their advertised numbers.

As small a difference as it sounds if possible one would want to use as close to the actual seat timing as possible or at least used the same tappet lift comparisons between the two cams.......IMHO.......

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Old 03-29-2023, 08:29 AM
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I wouldn’t necessarily say you shouldn’t do it, but I would have different expectations than what the program shows. It likely would not work out as well as retarding a 066 grind in a 400, mostly because the 2802 will scavenge more in a 455 than a 066 does in a 400. I think retarding the timing on a D port 6* to a 115 ICL with the 2802 will start to send some extra heat into the intake charge during overlap, and scavenge quite a bit less than it would if it were advanced. It would certainly run ok at 115 in a 455, headers would help, but you won’t see gains like the simulator is showing. It would not keep up with a RA4 grind for power. It won’t be able the scavenge near as well as the bigger cam that has more overlap.

This is a guess, but I think max power in that combo would be with the ICL installed at 112 or 113 in a 9.5 SCR 455, not 115 or more. The 2802 set on 115 in a 455 would likely show some pumping loss benefits at part throttle, but it would be a very narrow RPM range were there would be a benefit.

I have that program. Or rather the similar program that has some extra tool on it. That programs sees all cams as symmetrical. If the cam is Assymetric it shows bias for retarding the cam timing compared to real life. More or less the actual results won’t be as good as what the program shows. I often call the summit 2802 a symmetrical cam, but it has some slight assymetric’s in it’s design on the closing side. How the cam is actually ground would be like retarding it another 2 or 3 degrees in real life.

I don’t know what you set the program for, .050” or seat to seat. You might flip it back and forth and see how it changes the results. I would put 282 intake and 292 exhaust in on the seat values, (instead of 298 and 308), it will give a more accurate reflection of the cam. I think they usually run about 285 intake and 295 exh at .006” tappet. You have SAE at the valve numbers in the seat rating right now.

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Old 03-29-2023, 08:53 AM
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Meanwhile the Calc by David Vizard will advize a 106 LSA or even lower for 9.5:1. He insists.

LSA = 128 - ( 455/8 / 2.11 * 0.91 ) for 10.5:1,

You can move a degree lower for 9.5:1, a degree higher for 11.5:1
Some minor movement for effective Rocker Arm ratio, to account for seat velocity to 0.2" lift
No movement for Longer rods ( 0.25* )


The issue is tradition, Cam marketing, and COTS cam availability.

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Old 03-29-2023, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD455DJ View Post
Dmac, My brother Dan and I rebuilt a 1970 360 hp YH code 455 (std. in the Bonneville's) using the 100% stock #15 small valve heads (combustion chambers measured 89 cc's after a minimal cut to true them up) at 9.9 to 1 static compression. The block had been previously been bored .040 over with new cast pistons, so we had it honed to provide .0025" - .0030" clearance (we know, not ideal) for the new moly rings. The cast rods were replaced with Eagle H-beams and the factory crank cut .010/.010 with new bearings. The #15 heads had new Ferrea 1-pc stainless steel valves (1.96/1.66) with new CC valve springs and a Summit 2802 cam & lifter kit (224/234/112 @ .466"/.488") installed straight up (4 degree built in advance IIRC). We had the stock pressed in rocker studs pinned too rather than going to the screw in studs (cheap move on our part...and, again, not ideal). Again, the ports on the #15 heads were untouched and are known to flow 190/195 cfm on the intake side and 145/150 cfm on the exhaust both at .450"+ lift. With the factory cast iron intake, Q-jet, and exhaust log manifolds it made 390 hp at 4600 rpm and 512 lb-ft torque at 3400 rpm. With RA manifolds or headers, it would have easily been in the 420 hp/540 lb-ft range.

I'm not sure you could get 450 hp with stock #15 heads and lower compression, but maybe with a roller cam and headers with at least 9.5 compression.

Dennis
Checkout this 455 build with a Summit 2802. It has a dyno sheet posted. As a test see how close your simulation comes to the dyno sheet.

Stan

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Old 03-29-2023, 09:38 AM
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Since your running headers you need to add 3 to 4% more flow to your bare heads exh numbers and enter into your program.

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Old 03-29-2023, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan Weiss View Post
Checkout this 455 build with a Summit 2802. It has a dyno sheet posted. As a test see how close your simulation comes to the dyno sheet.

Stan
This is inline with a chassis dyno testing I did with an old 455 I had. it made peak power at around the same rpms. that is one of the reasons I throwing around the idea of retarreding the cam.

during my dyno run i was running into fueling issues with one of my carbs. ignore green and red and look at the purple.
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Old 03-29-2023, 11:40 AM
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More or less, there ends up being places where the retarded cam will shine. But the bigger 041 cam will end up with more average power and max power. With the smaller cam retarded, it shifts the power higher at the expenses of some average power at lower RPMs, which on a 455 you won’t miss, and you will likely like how the 2802 runs in a 9.5 SCR 455 positioned close to “straight up”, but it will not match up to the bigger cams overall power. If matching up to the bigger cams overall performance is the goal, I think you would be disappointed. But, if the expectation is to just maximize the performance of the 2802 in a 455, and make a nice street engine, you will probably like the cam timing positioned more “straight up” in the 455.

I have 2 5.7 Hemi cars. One has VVT, but the cams are the close to the same. The VVT engine retards the cam timing on the top end for more total HP, similar to this 2802 in a 455 idea. It does work, but within reason….when I put a bigger cam in the older engine it is clearly became more powerful than the VVT. I would expect the same thing jumping between a 2802 and a 041.

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Old 03-29-2023, 11:48 AM
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Your likely going to find that in order to match real life data to the sim 5 it will need at least 4* less advance than the cam card states. Otherwise the power noses over too soon on the sim. FWIW


Last edited by Jay S; 03-29-2023 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 03-29-2023, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud View Post
Meanwhile the Calc by David Vizard will advize a 106 LSA or even lower for 9.5:1.
Vizard's LSA philosophy is interesting but that's a moot point for this particular discussion since these are both off-the-shelf cams and Lobe Separation Angle can't be changed without regrinding, unlike ICL variances that will change when the valve open/close events occur.

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Old 03-29-2023, 12:25 PM
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I only have the old Desktop Dyno 2003. This shows the difference in 115 ICl and 108 ICL using The Sum2802.

Stan
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Old 03-30-2023, 04:20 AM
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You are going to have trouble outrunning th 041 cam with the 2802 no matter where you put it.

I've dyno'd a completely "stock" 455 with untouched heads with 96cc combustion chambers in them and it made 440hp and 530ft lbs torque with over 500ft lbs torque across most of the loaded RPM range.

I've also street and track tested the RAIV cam in a 455 with 6X-4 heads at 109ICL, 111, 113 and then 107. The testing included idle quality, vacuum production, street manners, then backed it up with drag strip runs. It likes to be at 109ICL and ran nearly as well at 111 but just a tad "soggy" right off idle for normal driving, and just tad slower in 60' at the track.

It HATED being at 113ICl and remarkably, despite what folks tell us about "advancing cams for more low end torque" it was a "turd" at 107ICL as well........FWIW......

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Old 03-30-2023, 06:07 AM
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Cliff thanks for this info !
It makes sense that in terms of the 455 that advancing it to 107 would make it suck, because the 455s Bore to stroke ratio is not even square, no less over square until the motor is taken .060" over.

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Old 03-30-2023, 07:52 AM
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Yep, I did it to learn about things like this. You can own the greatest software in the World, listen to "gurus" , resident Forum "experts", and watch all the Youtube videos you want about this sort of thing but NOTHING makes up for just getting out from behind your keyboard and getting dirty actually doing it.

There are LOTS of Internet "standards" folks regurgitate all the time and I guess we're just supposed to believe them.

9.5 compression for pump gas.

Advance the cam for more low end torque.

Richen up your carb because you put a bigger engine in it.

You need ALL the timing in by 1500rpm.

I put in a small cam because all I care about is low end torque and don't care what the engine makes at high RPM.

Get rid of that Quadra-Junk and put a Holley on it.

An MSD distributor will make more power than points.

........and the list goes on and on.......

Anyhow based on what I know from actually testing camshafts, intakes, spacers, carburetors, distributors, etc, I would NOT put a cam with less than 230 @ .050" duration in a 455 build right to start with. Even with good flowing heads and lower compression you are NOT helping things out with a small camshaft.

Attached is a dyno chart from a 455 Super Duty I did here a while back. It was close to 8.8 to 1 compression, I didn't touch the heads but someone had ground on them some decades ago so don't know the exact flow number, stock intake, factory Q-jet, stock distributor, etc. I did use much lighter forged rods and modern pistons with the thin ring packs in it. On the dyno it idled dead smooth without the first hint of having a larger cam in it. Made 16" vacuum clear down to 600RPM. Super responsive right off idle and made decent dyno numbers but done just past 5000rpms. The cam was a custom ground HR 230/236/112 LSA, card attached.........

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Old 03-30-2023, 08:43 AM
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Posting to compare my Signature with; 8.8:1 SD-455 with a HYD-Roller 230/236 @ 112 LSA. So I can see. I'll keep the flat tappets !

Seems a move to a 230/236 may help my combo's Cold-Idle and operation with a Q-JET.

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Old 03-30-2023, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff R View Post
You are going to have trouble outrunning th 041 cam with the 2802 no matter where you put it.

I've dyno'd a completely "stock" 455 with untouched heads with 96cc combustion chambers in them and it made 440hp and 530ft lbs torque with over 500ft lbs torque across most of the loaded RPM range.

I've also street and track tested the RAIV cam in a 455 with 6X-4 heads at 109ICL, 111, 113 and then 107. The testing included idle quality, vacuum production, street manners, then backed it up with drag strip runs. It likes to be at 109ICL and ran nearly as well at 111 but just a tad "soggy" right off idle for normal driving, and just tad slower in 60' at the track.

It HATED being at 113ICl and remarkably, despite what folks tell us about "advancing cams for more low end torque" it was a "turd" at 107ICL as well........FWIW......
Yes anything can be overdone, like advancing the cam. But unless your cam had a 109 LSA installing it @ 109 ICL most likely had the cam installed in the advanced position.

Stan

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Old 03-30-2023, 01:07 PM
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Many will assume a cam will have apprx 4 degrees of advance ground into it, and most I've installed were at or very close to where they needed to be. Still a good idea to check them and move if/as necessary.

I would add here that ALL the "RAIV" cams I've installed, whether it be Melling, Crower, Comp, Lunati, Howards, etc all came in right at 112-113ICL "dot to dot" Except for Melling each cam showed slightly "juggled" or different specs as the 041 cam on the specs provided with them. I supsect that is simply done to make it look like something they ground "in house" when it reality it was simply purchased and "re-boxed" with a little mark up.

The SAME thing happens with the "generic" 204/214/112 and 214/224/112 cams. LOTS of folks sell those cams, specs may be slightly different, but I'm betting they are all the same camsaft.......

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Old 03-30-2023, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud View Post
Meanwhile the Calc by David Vizard will advize a 106 LSA or even lower for 9.5:1. He insists.

LSA = 128 - ( 455/8 / 2.11 * 0.91 ) for 10.5:1,

You can move a degree lower for 9.5:1, a degree higher for 11.5:1
Some minor movement for effective Rocker Arm ratio, to account for seat velocity to 0.2" lift
No movement for Longer rods ( 0.25* )


The issue is tradition, Cam marketing, and COTS cam availability.
I get 107 LSA with an advanced ICL using the TMC program I wrote with David. But lets use 106 LSA and 106 ICL and see what the old Desktop Dyno 2003 says.

Stan
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