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Old 08-03-2022, 11:30 AM
hdpontiac hdpontiac is offline
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Default 65 GTO 3.23 rear gears

Just received the PHS on a 1965 GTO that I'm looking at states it has 3.23 rear gears but I thought those gears was used for ac cars only and this car is not eqipped with ac its a 389 4bbl 4speed per PHS documentation my question would they put those gears on a non ac cars.

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Old 08-03-2022, 11:32 AM
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Probably the standard gear for a 4-barrel car.

Tri-Power would be 3.55 if I’m not mistaken.

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Old 08-03-2022, 12:52 PM
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3.23 is the most common rear gear for '64-65 GTO's as I believe it was the default gear ratio for a manual transmission.

My 389/4bbl/4spd car also came with 3.23's from the factory.

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Old 08-03-2022, 01:59 PM
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Same here on a '67, 400 4 speed, 3;23 open

george

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Old 08-03-2022, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b-man View Post
Probably the standard gear for a 4-barrel car.

Tri-Power would be 3.55 if I’m not mistaken.
This ^^^^ is absolutely true for both of these carburetor cars.
I own one of each with paperwork.

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Old 08-03-2022, 10:15 PM
jeff chmura jeff chmura is offline
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3.08 is the ratio for auto with a/c
3.23 ratio is the standard according to Eric White numbers.

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Old 08-03-2022, 11:14 PM
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My '64, 389, 4bbl, 4 spd, non a/c, PHS, also 3.23.

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Old 08-04-2022, 03:04 AM
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Not sure about 65, but 66 had 3.23 for non-AC & 3.08 for AC cars.

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Old 08-04-2022, 09:44 AM
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My original 65 GTO , 4 Sp. 3 x 2's, NO A/C had 3:23 on PHS.

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Old 08-04-2022, 11:43 PM
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My GTO with AC originally came with 2.93 limited slip. I would say an owner could order anything he wanted back then.

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Old 08-05-2022, 08:59 AM
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Absolutely, you could order just about anything on the option list (and some that weren't) back in the day.

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Old 08-05-2022, 12:18 PM
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3.23 is completely normal for a M20 4 spd Pontiac STD equipment

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Old 08-05-2022, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatracer1 View Post
I would say an owner could order anything he wanted back then.
I agree. I was a high schooler pumping gas, fixing flats and changing oil in the summer and on weekends in the early 60s. We had a steady customer who bought a new Pontiac each year. In '62 it was a Bonneville wagon with leather bucket seats in the front, AM/FM, a 4 speed, A/C and if I remember right 3x2. I don't know the rear gear, but it went pretty good.

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Old 08-05-2022, 03:38 PM
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My car has the Super 2 speed automatic and it came with 3:32 from factory.

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Old 08-07-2022, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdpontiac View Post
Just received the PHS on a 1965 GTO that I'm looking at states it has 3.23 rear gears but I thought those gears was used for ac cars only and this car is not eqipped with ac its a 389 4bbl 4speed per PHS documentation my question would they put those gears on a non ac cars.
3.08 would have been standard for an AC car with a 4 bbl
3.23 ws stndard for a 4 bbl non AC car

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Old 08-07-2022, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LATECH View Post
3.08 would have been standard for an AC car with a 4 bbl
3.23 ws stndard for a 4 bbl non AC car
For manual trans cars, yes. In 1967, the standard rear for an AC car with the TH400 was a 2.93.

Most stock first gen GTO's with 4 barrel and a manual trans got the 3.23's as a standard gear.

3.23 is my favorite gear ratio for a manual first gen GTO. Good in town, good on the open road. When the 3.55's gave out in my tripower 4 speed '65, I had 3.36 gears installed instead, and enjoy a 70 mph cruise instead of a 60 mph cruise speed.

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Old 08-07-2022, 05:24 PM
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If you are interested, you can discover the axle ratio for the '64 or '65 A body by checking the Axle Charts. One Chart shows the Standard Release ratios with Standard Brake linings, the other shows the Standard Release ratios with Metallic Brake option. In both cases, the available Special Order ratios are also found.

The ratios (standard and special order) depended on car model, engine choice, trans choice, carburetion, AC or not, Trailering Option, and with or without Safe-T-Track. Of course, the GTO always got the 389.

If you didn't specify a Special Order ratio, you got the Standard Release ratio depending on the combination of the above choices.

If you specified a Special Order ratio, the build required Approval and it was only approved if the specified ratio was permissible according to the Axle Charts that, again, depended on the combination of the above choices.

You couldn't, for example, specify a 2.56 axle for a '64 or '65 GTO regardless of any other option selected. The 2.56 axle was offered for the A body, but you could not order it in a GTO, it would not be approved.

In '64, at the start of the year, you would get the 3.55 ratio as the standard release axle in a GTO with Manual Trans, Tripower, no AC or trailering option, Standard or Metallic Brake linings, and with or without Safe-T-Track.

In January '64, PMD announced a change for this combination, the 3.23 axle was now the standard release. You could still get the 3.55 axle but it was now a Special Order choice for this combination. It was permissible, so it would be approved.

The Approval is noted on the '64 Manifest docs available from PHS for any GTO that was ordered and built with a Special Order ratio.

Curiously, for '65, this combination reverted to the 3.55 as the Standard Release ratio.

In '64, PMD had a 3.90 axle with Standard Brakes for a specific combination in the A body. But you absolutely, positively could not specify it for any '64 GTO regardless of the above option combinations.

You could however special order a 3.90 axle for the GTO. But it required mandatory extra cost Metallic Brake option, HD Radiator, HD Fan, and Safe-T-Track options. You could NOT get it with AC. With Man Trans (3 or 4 spd), you could get it with the base 4 bbl or optional Tripower. With auto trans, you could only get it with the Tripower (and an extra cost Speedo Adapter for the trans was also required). Late year (nominally May '64), you could order the newly released M21 close ratio 4 spd but the 3.90 was mandatory along with the other extra cost options required with the 3.90 and it was only offered with Tripower.

I've never come across a '64 build that had the wrong axle installed by error but I'm sure it was possible. I have records for plenty of '64 builds that were ordered with a Special Order ratio and plenty more that were built with the Standard Release axle for the particular combination. Always conforming with the Axle Charts.

The OP indicates the '65 GTO build in question included the 4 bbl and 4 spd without AC. He didn't mention other options, so it isn't possible for me to know whether the 3.23 axle was included as the Standard Release for that build or by Special Order. But it was certainly common for a '64 or '65 GTO to get the 3.23 axle when NOT equipped with AC and the indicated combination.

I believe he was confused by the fact that the '65 GTO with AC and Tripower commonly got the 3.23 as the standard release (unless some other uncommon trailering option was included) while it would have gotten the 3.55 without AC. The 4 bbl GTO with AC combination often got the 3.08 in lieu of the 3.23 without AC.

Consult the Axle Charts for complete specific combinations.

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Old 08-07-2022, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V. View Post

You could however special order a 3.90 axle for the GTO. But it required mandatory extra cost Metallic Brake option, HD Radiator, HD Fan, and Safe-T-Track options. You could NOT get it with AC. With Man Trans (3 or 4 spd), you could get it with the base 4 bbl or optional Tripower. With auto trans, you could only get it with the Tripower (and an extra cost Speedo Adapter for the trans was also required). Late year (nominally May '64), you could order the newly released M21 close ratio 4 spd but the 3.90 was mandatory along with the other extra cost options required with the 3.90 and it was only offered with Tripower.

Consult the Axle Charts for complete specific combinations.
Thanks for all of your help over the years, John V.

As mentioned, I had the wide ratio trans because my car was built (before the M21 close ratio trans was available) with the 3.90 gears and metallic brakes.

For a number of years, in college, I had the Wangers 4.33 rear axle under the car. But I am glad that Tenny now has that axle under the Wanger's GTO.

Tom V.

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