[West Coast GTO]

Well, I didn't get a choice of the distributor( 8563)... it was in the car when I bought it. I did take your advice and put soft springs in( and took out the heaviest ones) and that, along with going to NGL plugs and a new Brawler double pumper carb appears to have solved the backfire problem. I could not tell which of the changes to attribute that to but I will take what I can get. Another member here recommended a DUI HEI dizzy with a vacuum advance and i am seriously considering that. In the meantime, the engine likes 18-20 advance and definitely doesnt like more or less for that matter.

Originally Posted by 25stevem

That’s a expensive racing distributor and I think you have shot your self in the foot some with that if the car will be used mainly on the street due to it not having vacuum advance.

That being said You clearly need to read thru that MSD instructions for it again.

If it’s the 8563 model there is tons of timing adjustments that can be made inside that distributor!

I say this because of your comments about having 18 degrees of initial timing.

I think what your mistakenly taking about is the black colored limiting bushing that gives a max of 18 degrees available.

If you had 12 degrees initial then with the 18 degree limit from the bushing you would have good safe total of 30 degrees above 4000 rpm or so.

Once again your motor would not crank over hot with 18 degrees of initial timing, that is unless you have very very low cylinder pressure.

[Joe's Garage]

[QUOTE=25stevem;6362200]Dont listen to what Mike has posted.

[25stevem]

We absolutely have to determine what the heck you really have for initial advance because it can’t be 18 to 20 degrees unless the motor has a cam timing problem, period!!!

Please do this .
Hook up your timing light once the motor is fully warmed up, then get the motor to idle as low as it possibly can, even if it’s rocking and chugging badly.
It might help to have another person there just to blip the throttle a little at times to keep the motor running.

I would like you to get the initial timing reading you have at 700 rpm or less and report back to us with that.

PS.

If you do find that you have 18 degrees of initial then you must only have something like 125 psi of cranking cylinder pressure, which would not be good!

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by 25stevem

If you do find that you have 18 degrees of initial then you must only have something like 125 psi of cranking cylinder pressure, which would not be good!

Why doesn't he just do a cranking compression test?

Stan

[25stevem]

That would work to Stan, but I just have this nagging need to know what his base timing is and for him to see what he has also!

[West Coast GTO]

OK, Do I " get the motor to idle as low as possible" by adjusting the timing or idle? I'll do what ever is needed. I also have two timing lights( both advance adjustable) and will try both. I took a video of the engine running but cannot upload the Apple MOV file to this website. Engine sounds strong. Also, after adjusting for low idle, I will do a compression test.

Originally Posted by 25stevem

We absolutely have to determine what the heck you really have for initial advance because it can’t be 18 to 20 degrees unless the motor has a cam timing problem, period!!!

Please do this .
Hook up your timing light once the motor is fully warmed up, then get the motor to idle as low as it possibly can, even if it’s rocking and chugging badly.
It might help to have another person there just to blip the throttle a little at times to keep the motor running.

I would like you to get the initial timing reading you have at 700 rpm or less and report back to us with that.

PS.

If you do find that you have 18 degrees of initial then you must only have something like 125 psi of cranking cylinder pressure, which would not be good!

[25stevem]

Idle the motor down by means of the carbs idle speed screw and use the timing light that is not adjustable unless you have proven that both read the same.

While your in there doing the compression test you should do all the cylinders, have the carb wide open and have all the plugs out of the motor.
You want to record the compression you see after 4 hits on the gauge .

[West Coast GTO]

So, I adjusted the idle down after warm up ( did not want to run even with choke plate mostly closed) , ran timing light ( cheap one from Harbor Freight) and noted 40 degrees at idle( OMG). Timing read 18-20 the last time I timed it with the Sears Craftsman unit. I began removing advance slowly ( after timing to 18 degrees) and adjusting idle to compensate until I got to 12 degrees initial. Then I adjusted the four corner idle screws fatter from their 1 1/4 out from bottom in 1/4 turn increments. Vacuum was at 10 hg as I added ( out) and did not increase vacuum. I then turned in idle screws ( 1/4 turn increments) until back to initial screw setting with vacuum at 12-13 hg. At 3/8 turn in from that setting, the vacuum jumped to 15 hg and idle speed jumped from 700 to 1100 rpm. I adjusted idle speed back down to 700 rpm and that is where I ended up. Now I will check compression ( after a little cool down).

[West Coast GTO]

Well, after engine cooled down a bit, I attempted to determine total advance. Car very hard to start and ran like it was loading up. Total advance at 2000 rpm was 37 degrees.
Let the engine cool a bit, then checked timing and engine ran like crap. Tried adjusting idle screws again and engine would not settle down. Did not bother with compression check yet.
Is there a chance that the coil is going bad and partially craps out when hot?

[25stevem]

Please define hard to start better.
Is it now hard to Crank with 37 degrees total, or is it hard to get it to light off?

If you have 37 degrees showing up when your even just cranking the motor, then yes, with that much timing it will be hard to Crank, but once it does start it should run very smooth but with a high idle speed.

[West Coast GTO]

Car is difficult to light up at start... acts like it needs more gas. It is not hard to crank now with 12 degrees initial timing with 37 degrees total at 2000+ rpm.

If you look at my first post yesterday, it looked and sounded like I hit a critical point in the timing and idle adjustment where it jumped in vacuum and idle speed. Engine was running better and better with small idle adjustments , then took a jump in rpm and vacuum. After I adjusted the idle speed screw back down to 700 rpm, engine didn't run as good as before that last adjustment. BTW, the visible gasoline pressure gauge at carb was fluttering at 5-6 lbs, then settled down to steady 3 lbs at idle during four corner idle adjustments until last adjustment, where it went back up to 5-6 lbs fluttering. Fuel still visible in float bowls.

[25stevem]

It sounds like now you need to pull the carb off and check where the throttle blades are in relation to the fuel transfer slots in the throttle plate.

[Hesster1977]

25 says -
"pull the carb off and check where the throttle blades are in relation to the fuel transfer slots"

Yeah - that is important for a smooth idle and correct "tip in" when accelerating.

I can share a issue I had that could cause similar issues you are seeing -
Proper carb float level. One may think this is not all that important, but in reality, it is very important - see below. Maybe you don't have these issues, but thought I would throw them out there.

If it is set too high, it can cause "spill over" and fuel will overflow inside the carb body. This is mostly independent of fuel pressure, except where it is too high to the point of unseating the fuel inlet needle seat.. My car ran like crap until I found I had this problem. I could "see" the small excess fuel being discharged. "look down the carburetor's throat to the main nozzle. If it is wet or dripping with gasoline, the float level is probably too high, causing the fuel to discharge while the engine is idling."

You say -

"Fuel still visible in float bowls." - that is good, but is it at the right level? Usually it should be somewhere in between the bottom and the center of the sight hole.

Some web input:

"Although your carb’s floats are pre-adjusted from the factory, they often come out of adjustment during shipping. Check the float level and adjust to the manufacturer’s specifications. If the floats are too high, the carburetor will run rich."
"Make sure the fuel pressure isn’t set too high. As rule of thumb, set your fuel pressure to these ranges based on the carburetor brand: 5-7 psi for Holley, Quick Fuel, AED, Willy’s, or Summit Racing; or 4-5 psi for Edelbrock or Jet."
So I think 3 psi at idle could be too low. It should be prob twice that at all times.

And -

"If the float height is too low, this will cause the fuel to drop to a level below the operational spec. If the fuel height is a bit too low, the engine will display a lean running condition, where the engine hesitates before accelerating or surges as the throttle is opened. A low float level will create fuel starvation, which will cause the engine to stumble.

[West Coast GTO]

Hesster: I can easily verify the proper float level on this carb ( glass sights on primary and secondary with 1/2 full required on both) and will adjust if necessary.

25 says -
"pull the carb off and check where the throttle blades are in relation to the fuel transfer slots"
I can do that as well but I don't know what to look for after the carb is off. Are the blades supposed to cover the slots, hid them or just what do I do if adjustment is needed?

[25stevem]

This transition slot needs to be exposed a little bit under each throttle blade when the motor is at the idle speed you need for a stable idle.

Also whenever you adjust/ reset the idle speed on a Holley you also need to reset the clearance on the accelerator pump lever as part of the having the carb respond right when you open the throttle.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

[QUOTE=Dragncar;6362317]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

When you line you timing marks up like the picture a old Motors Manual shows you are up on # 6. You can either start out with your distributor 180 out, up on # 6. Or turn the engine over one turn and have the distributor in the correct location up on #1.
Your engine does not know the difference. I run mine 180 out because I like to have a mark on the firewall where the vacuum bulb nipple (not used, mech advance only) points to where I like to run my total advance. 36 deg in my 455 with iron heads.
Some people have looked at it and tried to tell me my engine will not run right. They do not know what they are talking about.

Mikes reply:

(1) Find top dead center on number one at the compression stroke.
(2) Align the dots at 12 o'clock on each gear.
(3) Drop the Distributor in and align the rotor to point at the Steering wheel.
(4) Facing the windshield go counterclockwise direction installing your plug wires with the firing order 1-8 -4-3-6-5-7-2 starting with the #1 facing the steering wheel.

[racegto65]

Originally Posted by West Coast GTO

I agree with your evaluation on the ring ridge and glaze as well as any "rebuilt" lower end condition. Since it is apart, I now want a strong, dependable engine al the lowest cost. It appears to be a consensus that the 2 bolt bottom end is good for my needs so I will upgrade to forged pistons and rods and have the machinist check bore tolerances again before he over bores
. Thank you to all that have posted here, I really appreciate it.

I agree with mgarblik.
For a budget build I would resize the rods with ARP bolts, add main studs to the 2 bolt caps and use a hypereutectic piston and moly rings.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Mikes Reply:
Have you made the motor run properly yet? I could try to find the information I used when I installed my 041 cam for you. You don't want to keep posting, sometimes you must go back to move forward. Let me know.

[West Coast GTO]

I put this project on hold for some much needed construction work on the house and health reasons. I am now going to remove Brawler carb, set the transfer slot to square, set the four corner idle starting at 3/4 turn from bottom and then adjust from there.
I also read on this site that a member needed to install a DUI HEI and needed to run a #12 wire from ignition directly to dizzy. If anyone knows what that post was, i would really like to review it ( I couldn't find it in the Search area) so I can install my new DUI HEI set up for this motor.
Thanks,

[jhein]

Originally Posted by West Coast GTO

I put this project on hold for some much needed construction work on the house and health reasons. I am now going to remove Brawler carb, set the transfer slot to square, set the four corner idle starting at 3/4 turn from bottom and then adjust from there.
I also read on this site that a member needed to install a DUI HEI and needed to run a #12 wire from ignition directly to dizzy. If anyone knows what that post was, i would really like to review it ( I couldn't find it in the Search area) so I can install my new DUI HEI set up for this motor.
Thanks,

I'm not sure if it was my thread you saw but here it is.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=862240

Basically, I ran a 12g wire from my fuse block to the Dist. I used a fuse tap like this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1