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Old 05-22-2019, 02:14 AM
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Now you've gotten this far, time to set it up for E85! I just got mine fired up this morning on half a tank of the finest corn juice and it's actually not that hard since all the wideband is programmed to convert from lambda to gasoline, so am just using the same target AFR's with flex blend between the gasoline and ethanol tables (on the fuel side I just took the gasoline fuel table and added 45% as a starting point) and have that nice alcoholly corny smell now. It's bliss

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  #82  
Old 05-22-2019, 06:03 AM
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Cool Kris! Now you can add boost! It never really ends does it?

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  #83  
Old 06-02-2019, 01:14 AM
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Hit a milestone today... Went to the local Saturday night gathering. Engine fired at the turn of the key, and ran flawlessly there and back. Since my last update I've fought some issues with closed loop idle, and trying to find the perfect(for current weather/temperature) balance of priming/cranking pulse widths to achieve start up with turn of the key. The closed loop idle issue was basically self inflicted. I didn't completely understand all the parameters that affect closed loop idle, and I had a bunch of funky values in a table that was MUCH more crucial than I realized. The cranking was a matter of trial and error and starting this project from scratch with no point of reference. Krisr sent me some stuff that I'm sure would've made it easier, but I couldn't open the files, probably due to firmware differences, and or the fact I think he's running a different ecu. I appreciate his efforts nonetheless! I've still done no wide open testing, and it's probably by the grace of God! I got home tonight, jacked the car up to drain the oil, (it's idled a LOT for all the tuning of idle functions) and noticed all inner and outer tie rods were in bad to really bad shape... I was lucky. I'll get that taken care of, then I will move on to some wide open throttle stuff. So far I'm impressed with this system, and honestly expect to continue to be. The data logging software is really impressive. It was a great help in solving my (mostly self inflicted) issues. More to come.

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  #84  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:58 AM
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I found some great info in this guy's videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXSO...CJDRF_&index=4

You've inspired me- I just ebay'd some D581 and connectors.... Kinda getting ahead of myself, but I gotta keep my motivation up!
I'm going to build a cam sync w/ an MSD Hall Effect sensor and an old Accel dist.

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Old 06-03-2019, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC455 View Post
I found some great info in this guy's videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXSO...CJDRF_&index=4

You've inspired me- I just ebay'd some D581 and connectors.... Kinda getting ahead of myself, but I gotta keep my motivation up!
I'm going to build a cam sync w/ an MSD Hall Effect sensor and an old Accel dist.
Great news. I think it's worth it, and I think you'll be happy with it. The timing control alone was great. You can do things with it that can't be done with a ditributor. Or at least without a bunch of add on stuff. When you get started, start a thread so we can follow along.

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  #86  
Old 06-29-2019, 04:50 PM
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I had one remaining issue, a lean condition on deceleration that I resolved yesterday, and I have a pretty nice ve table/afr in all cruise conditions now. So it seems like a good time to kinda summarize this experience. I learned a lot, and have a lot left to learn if I were to make use of every function available. In my opinion, the MS3 pro ultimate is a very good product with very good peripherals(instructions, manuals, tuning and data logging software). The data logs are very powerful tuning tools. Tunerstudio seems very good to me too. In fairness I've never used the others. However, I'm no youngster, and I was able to make this work, and that speaks volumes in my opinion. Tech support is good, but not necessarily timely. There is a network of folks on the msextra forums(including our own krisr here) that have massive amounts of knowledge about both the hardware, software, interaction between, programming(ms is open source code) and everything in between. Matt Cramer of diyautotune/ampefi, is an amazing help as well. But tech help isn't always immediate. That, in retrospect is not a bad thing. I was forced in some instances to think analytically for myself, and low and behold, clarity does arrive...
The wide open nature of MS is great, and daunting at the same time. You have endless choices of what you can do with it, but you do have to make the choices and then implement them. There is no set throttle body, or crank sensor, or cam sensor, or anything else. You can do it almost any way you want, with whatever parts you want. Which is great for the visionaries, and good, but a little confusing for those that wanna take a known quantity of stuff made to work together and just "hook it all up". Personally, I'm glad now for the versatility, though in the beginning I was concerned whether I would make good choices that would work well together. I didn't have to rework anything, and everything played well together. I bought just about everything new, except the fabricated cam sync. I used all new sensors, though many are successful with junkyard stuff. I didn't wanna take that chance.
I've learned along the way, and its given me ideas while working with Tunerstudio. I now know I need some speed sensors, to be able to make better use of the features available. Its actually amazing what's possible. The learning part of this has actually occupied my mind more so than anything car related has in quite some time. It's been a really good experience. I'm no expert now by any means, but if I can help others I will. Dont hesitate to send a PM if interested in this process. I hope in the future, we get an efi section here at PY to centralize some of this type stuff.
Bottom line, I would recommend highly sequential fuel/spark and Megasquirt.

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Last edited by Scott65; 06-29-2019 at 05:18 PM. Reason: Addition
  #87  
Old 06-29-2019, 09:39 PM
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Scott with all the fuel tables good now, have you leaned on it?

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Old 06-29-2019, 10:02 PM
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Not really, unfortunately. I have stomped it off idle a few times, and surprisingly, the acceleration enrichment handles it with the default settings. No flat spot, just launched as it should. Unfortunately, my area has grown so much, that there's nowhere left where it's safe to open it up. The cops have no sense of humor, and I can't say as I blame them. My car will probably be around 125 mph on an all out pass. That's unsafe as heavily populated as we are here. I expect to need to lean it up a little at WOT, I've had to lean it up in all the areas so far. Not a lot, but some. It's almost as if the Tunerstudio fuel calculations have a little safety factor built in, which is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. I plan to get to the track when time and weather permits. I can safely tune the upper rpm fuel curve there. I won't be able to get a time, or maybe one if I feel like I've got it close enough. They have no sense of humor on the whole roll bar thing... I have no reason to expect that the WOT performance won't be just as impressive as the cruise areas after a little tuning. Itll be my first time at the track to tune fuel and timing curves and not need any tools! I also got a name from a fellow member her of someone who may be able to help me dyno tune it. I've never done that before, so it would be interesting. I've always tuned them "by timeslip". I will update this thread after I get some WOT information.

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  #89  
Old 06-30-2019, 09:26 AM
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Not really, unfortunately. I have stomped it off idle a few times, and surprisingly, the acceleration enrichment handles it with the default settings. No flat spot, just launched as it should. Unfortunately, my area has grown so much, that there's nowhere left where it's safe to open it up. The cops have no sense of humor, and I can't say as I blame them. My car will probably be around 125 mph on an all out pass. That's unsafe as heavily populated as we are here. I expect to need to lean it up a little at WOT, I've had to lean it up in all the areas so far. Not a lot, but some. It's almost as if the Tunerstudio fuel calculations have a little safety factor built in, which is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. I plan to get to the track when time and weather permits. I can safely tune the upper rpm fuel curve there. I won't be able to get a time, or maybe one if I feel like I've got it close enough. They have no sense of humor on the whole roll bar thing... I have no reason to expect that the WOT performance won't be just as impressive as the cruise areas after a little tuning. Itll be my first time at the track to tune fuel and timing curves and not need any tools! I also got a name from a fellow member her of someone who may be able to help me dyno tune it. I've never done that before, so it would be interesting. I've always tuned them "by timeslip". I will update this thread after I get some WOT information.

I am sure with traction the it may alter the load / fuel tables....no?

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Old 06-30-2019, 10:00 AM
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I'm sure there will be some differences. To my way of thinking, it won't differ much in the cells that are already good though. I'll be having to dial in the higher map/higher rpm cells, which I'm sure will need some tweaking. Thats where the power of the datalogs come in. I'll be able to look at the acceleration rates during low gear with traction, and compare to what I'm seeing on a wide open launch with traction. And look at the afr for the whole run, afterwards and adjust. Megalog viewer will actually analyze the run for you, and recommend the necessary adjustments. It becomes up to the user whether to accept those, or do it manually yourself. There's more work to be done for sure. I'm kinda updating as I go, to keep from getting behind and missing something. Trying to do this for posterity, so to speak. I'm not sure how many people are keeping up with this thread, but if it helps anyone, it will be time well spent. I did feel at this point I could recommend this as a good product, and a positive experience. I have absolutely no reason to think WOT testing, and tuning won't reap the same rewards as everything so far. I'm going to make another separate post covering some of the features, as I haven't spent much time on that. So far I've mostly addressed setting it up to run, and getting it running/driving. It's crazy what all this ecu, and the tuning software can do.

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  #91  
Old 06-30-2019, 06:48 PM
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I am sure with traction the it may alter the load / fuel tables....no?
Yes it can. If you dial in your fuel map on the street/track and you had to pedal it or didn't have a smooth/solid WOT run, transient fuelling or accel-enrichment pulses can screw things up.

I personally prefer to chassis dyno the car to find the torque/hp peaks in the timing cells and get the fuelling as good as it can get on the dyno before hitting the track. Stick cars or converter cars that don't flash the converter high are pretty easy, I can normally get the full top end dialled in and blended back in about 2-3 hours but higher flashing converters can cause wheel spin on the dyno so it can be tricky with loading them up or doing a power sweep.

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Old 06-30-2019, 07:04 PM
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I'm sure there will be some differences. To my way of thinking, it won't differ much in the cells that are already good though. I'll be having to dial in the higher map/higher rpm cells, which I'm sure will need some tweaking. Thats where the power of the datalogs come in. I'll be able to look at the acceleration rates during low gear with traction, and compare to what I'm seeing on a wide open launch with traction. And look at the afr for the whole run, afterwards and adjust. Megalog viewer will actually analyze the run for you, and recommend the necessary adjustments. It becomes up to the user whether to accept those, or do it manually yourself. There's more work to be done for sure. I'm kinda updating as I go, to keep from getting behind and missing something. Trying to do this for posterity, so to speak. I'm not sure how many people are keeping up with this thread, but if it helps anyone, it will be time well spent. I did feel at this point I could recommend this as a good product, and a positive experience. I have absolutely no reason to think WOT testing, and tuning won't reap the same rewards as everything so far. I'm going to make another separate post covering some of the features, as I haven't spent much time on that. So far I've mostly addressed setting it up to run, and getting it running/driving. It's crazy what all this ecu, and the tuning software can do.
What I found, not sure if it helps you at all, is for my pump gas tune I managed to fatten up the fuel table to the point where I didn't need any accel-enrichment at all (zero'd it out completely) by adding fuel in the cells above idle and up to about 1400rpm because my converter won't couple up to use those cells anyway. This made tuning launch (and everywhere in fact) and the full pass very easy because I wasn't fighting that AE pulse. E85 is a different story though because it needs a big pulse to get moving so if you're on corn juice, just remember to factor that in but on pump after about 0.5 seconds from stomping on it, it's all VE table as the AE pulse is long gone.

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Old 06-30-2019, 07:28 PM
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Thanks for offering another method Kris. My converter flashes to 4000 pretty reliably(always), so I hope to be able to leave the cells in the cruise area alone. Hopefully the logs will help me spot acceleration enrichment coming and going, so far anyway I've been able to see it. It seems to only come into play at times you'd expect, quick throttle movement. It seems not to be there at times it shouldn't be. Hopefully it will be straightforward. A dyno would be better I think, but I'm not sure yet whether that will pan out or not. Kris, I'm gonna send you a PM about a question I dont want confusing this thread.

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  #94  
Old 07-03-2019, 11:14 AM
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Scott,
This is really great stuff!
Have you thought about doing a video to show, in real time, all the features you are talking about? It'd be cool to actually see how to test the coils for spark; how to use TS to initiate spark control; how to tune the spark control; etc.
Ok, I'm being selfish- this would really help ME! LOL but I'm sure others would glean info from it too

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Old 07-03-2019, 11:40 AM
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JC, I haven't begun to actually make use of all the features, that's the crazy part. I'm going to have to just list them, because for now, many of them will remain unused in my case. I would love to be able to add a turbo or supercharger to make use of the boost control! I am in the planning stages for adding at least one speed sensor. It takes a lot of the simple functions, and adds another level to them. Just a simple example is the fan control. If you have a speed sensor, in addition to the normal parameters, you can shut off the fan above a chosen mph, at the point it isn't adding cooling, to save your fan motor(s) charging system etc. And that's probably the most rudimentary example. Engine states will use it for over run fuel cut(fuel saving feature), traction control with two speed sensors, and pretty much anything else if you start programming your own input/output channels and use the vss as one of the limits. I'll work on making a list as best I can, but I encourage anyone seriously interested to download the manual. It's free, and it's super informative. Even if your generically interested, and not sold on MS, it's well written, and will give you an idea of what's possible, what to look for in an ecu/tuning/logging arrangement.

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  #96  
Old 07-03-2019, 11:45 AM
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Another off the top of my head that's pretty simple and I think lots would find beneficial, is the dual fuel capability. Have an interest in E85? Add a gm flex fuel sensor, and you can do it. Dual table, table switching will allow you to go back and forth. Or run cruise nights on gasoline, and the track on E85. This assumes injectors capable of supporting your horsepower requirements with E85 of course. Or you could run staged, and have two sets of injectors. It's crazy... Wish I was younger and had more time to learn...

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  #97  
Old 07-09-2019, 04:08 PM
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Another feature I'll mention(now that it has entered the picture) is one of the safety features. AFR safety. If enabled, this will cut fuel and spark if you're afr is outside your chosen parameters. I had it activate Saturday... I leaned into the engine past half throttle for the first time. I have it set very conservatively since it's a new combination and I'm new at tuning it. I wasn't hooked up to the laptop at the time and wouldn't have known I was entering the danger zone. The ecu did its job and cut fuel and spark til I let out, and got back into the safe zone. Pulled up the log later and it was 15.7. Not terrible, but it may have gotten worse, and I wouldn't have known. I think it's a very good feature to have. This incident prompted me to reprogram the wideband output to be able to run the gauge with the second output, and get the gauge installed. Found an interesting place for it... And yes that's the bottom of a cool whip container. Seems sturdy when it's all mounted together
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:25 PM
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Awesome going Scott! Yeah the AFR safety saved my butt a few times with fuel delivery problems, especially with E85. Cruising around and idling, my consumption is pretty close to pump gas on E85, but when you're having a more than spirited drive you i'm using about +44% more peak and that's just a baby 400 with 650cc injectors so plan your fuel system carefully LOL. My new fuel setup will most likely be 2x intank fuel pumps with the main one controlled by a PWM controller out of a late model Jaguar and the second one will be staged, injector wise I think i'll be going to 800's or ID1000's later in the year because i'm getting close to maxing out the 650's on corn and it's not even made a pass yet!

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Old 07-09-2019, 07:45 PM
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I'm using the magnafuel pro tuner 525 out of a sumped tank. I don't think I should have any delivery issues... I'm sure my table needs adjustment. I added 15% 2500 and up, over 80kpa. I'll try it again, and leave the afr safety in play. Also shopping for pressure transducers to be able to log fuel pressure, just in case.

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  #100  
Old 07-26-2019, 03:10 PM
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I did some testing today. Nothing serious, mostly curious about whether the changes I made to the fuel table would keep the afr safety system happy. I'm happy to report that it did. I haven't studied the log yet, but when i glanced at afr(laptop up and working this time) it was 12.4 somewhere between 4 and 5k at WOT in second gear. This was where the safety system took it out before, so its progress. No room for WOT testing, too much traffic, saw 4 cops while I was out... But I feel better that it was safe(though maybe a touch rich). The table goes up proportionally from that point, so hopefully it will be in the ballpark at WOT. But if not, I have my friend the afr safety to take over. As an aside, my gauge did work, and I could see it with no trouble in the daylight. Had concerns about it being in the passenger's vent hole, but it worked out good. And it reads correctly and corresponds properly to the channel the laptop is reading. I was happy about that, because my computer skills aren't super strong and I was concerned whether or not I had reprogrammed the second output correctly... Sometimes it's the little things! The other thing I tested was the transmission kickdown.(I'm going to make a separate post to discuss this) Spoiler: it works. Next step, adding a pressure transducer to read/log fuel pressure.
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